Mumm-Ra Prototype Q

I was surfing the ol' Google wave, looking for some TC toy stuff for the Toy Section, when I stumbled upon the famous Mumm-Ra prototype; the one with the alternate sculpt . A fantastic looking piece which is currently in the collection of forum member Eternian Phoenix, if I'm not mistaken.



Now, I never saw the back of the figure till today and I noticed that the lightup-feature battery connect is molded in the back of the figure. This made me think, which is never a good thing :) I'm not gonna start a debate about the authenticity of the piece, but what I'm curious about is this: when, why and by whom was this thing made?



So, clearly the battery connect was molded-in, but if you look closely you can also make out the (closed-up) opening for the battle-matic action lever, so I have to conclude that a working figure was used for the mold. Or at the very least a working factory prototype. But I've never seen a hardcopy with action features molded in.

At first I though this was a hardcopy of the http://thundercats.org/toys-main/ljn/prototypes/mumm-ra-with-cape/"" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Mumm-Ra with Cape from a 1985 LJN dealer catalog, but that figure has the "normal" Mumm-Ra hands, legs & feet. Only the arms/shoulder articulation look similair. Still could be, but it would mean they changed the legs & feet and hands back to the "normal" Mumm-Ra ones. With CrazyGlue I guess :)

This Mumm-Ra must be younger then the "normal" Mumm-Ra, so where does it fit? Why was this even sculpted, after Mumm-Ra was already released? Discuss!

Man, you're good.

It's a pity they did not use this prototype for Mumm-Ra as he has a far better sculpt and proportions.
It's a pity some of the people with these prototypes couldn't work out some type of deal with Lulu-Berlu to produce action figures from them. :rolleyes::D

I remember seeing this a while back. It certainly is a very interesting and mysterious figure! I was always under the impression that this was from later in the line well after the original Mumm-ra figure was released. I am not very familiar with the toy creation process, but could this be a Mumm-ra they were thinking about adding late in the line and used the standard Mumm-ra torso for the mold? I do certainly like this version although the hands to not seem very conducive to holding/using any type of weapons.

Yes, I remember seeing pics of this Mumm-Ra when it was first posted on the now defunct "Thundercats.ws" site. But I never really took that close a look at its back. Your observation is a really nice one "thunderianroyalguard" and it certainly has piqued my curiosity! :)

To the best of my knowledge, hardcopy prototypes almost never have the action lever or the battery contact sculpted in them. The only logical explanation I can think of is what "adssse" suggested. Maybe the makers wanted to see how this new figure would look but were too lazy to re-sculpt the head and torso so they just "customized" a toy's head and torso and added the arms and legs. Still that does seem rather odd considering that they already own all the hardcopies and the master molds. :confused:

Also why is that that the left arm and leg are different colored compared to the right arm and leg? It's almost like only one arm and leg was sculpted and then used to "reproduce" a mirror. Again as far as I know this is not how the TCats LJN toys were made as every limb was sculpted separately.

Another issue with this is that while it does look cool, the figure would never have been able to hold any weapons/accessories. So I seriously doubt that LJN were considering replacing the standard Mumm-Ra with this design, unless it was an alternate sculpt for the Lua Lasher Mumm-Ra.

Actually this post reminds me of a similar question that has been bugging me for a while. Some time ago, a forum member had posted pictures of the prototype of the Red Thundwerings Lion-O which appeared on some catalogs. Here is the thread: http://thundercats.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9020&highlight=lion-o"" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://thundercats.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9020&highlight=lion-o
If you look closely, the figure has "slitted eyes" just like the toy. This is something I've never been able to figure out why. As far as I know, no hardcopies/prototypes were ever made with the slit in the eyes. Just like the lever on the back and the contact point, the slits were added during production. I guess these are questions that only an ex-LJN employee can answer. :)

I know this isn't the right thread but that Red Lion-O figure would have been awesome if they had released it along with another season of the cartoon in which Lion-O's outfit got changed.

"Wilycub, post: 97440" said:

Yes, I remember seeing pics of this Mumm-Ra when it was first posted on the now defunct "Thundercats.ws" site. But I never really took that close a look at its back. Your observation is a really nice one "thunderianroyalguard" and it certainly has piqued my curiosity! :)

Good man!

"Wilycub, post: 97440" said:

To the best of my knowledge, hardcopy prototypes almost never have the action lever or the battery contact sculpted in them. The only logical explanation I can think of is what "adssse" suggested. Maybe the makers wanted to see how this new figure would look but were too lazy to re-sculpt the head and torso so they just "customized" a toy's head and torso and added the arms and legs. Still that does seem rather odd considering that they already own all the hardcopies and the master molds. :confused:

My thoughts exactly :)

"Wilycub, post: 97440" said:

Also why is that that the left arm and leg are different colored compared to the right arm and leg? It's almost like only one arm and leg was sculpted and then used to "reproduce" a mirror. Again as far as I know this is not how the TCats LJN toys were made as every limb was sculpted separately.

Don't know if that was possible in the 80's :D But point taken!

"Wilycub, post: 97440" said:

Another issue with this is that while it does look cool, the figure would never have been able to hold any weapons/accessories. So I seriously doubt that LJN were considering replacing the standard Mumm-Ra with this design, unless it was an alternate sculpt for the Lua Lasher Mumm-Ra.

Could be, but LJN removed the Battle-Matic Action lever and the light-up feature for the Luna Lasher (and ThunderWings) 2-packs to improve playability AND lower costs. So a 70% newly sculpted figure seems illogical..

"Wilycub, post: 97440" said:

Actually this post reminds me of a similar question that has been bugging me for a while. Some time ago, a forum member had posted pictures of the prototype of the Red Thundwerings Lion-O which appeared on some catalogs. Here is the thread: http://thundercats.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9020&highlight=lion-o"" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://thundercats.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9020&highlight=lion-o
If you look closely, the figure has "slitted eyes" just like the toy. This is something I've never been able to figure out why. As far as I know, no hardcopies/prototypes were ever made with the slit in the eyes. Just like the lever on the back and the contact point, the slits were added during production. I guess these are questions that only an ex-LJN employee can answer. :)

Yeah, I'm afraid I'm not a 100% sold on that Red Lion-O. Not pointing fingers here, just a gut feeling, I guess..

As for this Mumm-Ra, I find it odd that there is no further information or any other images that clarify the origin and point of this figure. Also, since it's a hardcopy, there have to be more [parts] of these out there right? We've seen all sorts of design sheets, original sculpts, working Mad Bubbler proto's, Red Eyes and Feliners, boggles the mind that this toy has not been documented in any other way than this copy.

I want to know this Mumm-Ra's origin and what, if anything, LJN had planned for this figure. :thumbsup:

"thunderianroyalguard, post: 97444" said:

As for this Mumm-Ra, I find it odd that there is no further information or any other images that clarify the origin and point of this figure. Also, since it's a hardcopy, there have to be more [parts] of these out there right? We've seen all sorts of design sheets, original sculpts, working Mad Bubbler proto's, Red Eyes and Feliners, boggles the mind that this toy has not been documented in any other way than this copy.

I want to know this Mumm-Ra's origin and what, if anything, LJN had planned for this figure. :thumbsup:

My thoughts exactly! :) I mean every prototype that I have seen is either a hardcopy of a figure that was produced or appeared on the LJN catalogs. This Mumm_Ra is the only one whose origin is completely unknown. Maybe the "Certificate of Authenticity" has more information about this particular figure. Too bad that it is only partially visible in the photos. :(

Another thing, notice how the shoulder joints of this figure are completely different from all the other figures in the LJN ThunderCats Line. All the figures have shoulder joints that allow them to swing in the z-plane. This figure looks like its arms can move 360 degrees.

This really is a bit of a Thundercats mystery! Here is a thread from another forum where a former owner discusses it somewhat. It also contains a picture of the COA that can be read if you zoom in. It would be great to have contact with someone who worked on the line

http://www.thundercats.ws/showthread.php?t=41949"" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.thundercats.ws/showthread.php?t=41949

Looking at the feet more, these dont appear to be mirrror images to me. The tassels or whatever you would call them look slightly different to me.


Also, does anyone know what the dark line (almost looks like an arrow) is on his torso/neck area is?

"adssse, post: 97454" said:

This really is a bit of a Thundercats mystery! Here is a thread from another forum where a former owner discusses it somewhat. It also contains a picture of the COA that can be read if you zoom in. It would be great to have contact with someone who worked on the line

Thanks for that link, "adssse"! Unfortunately I am unable to open any of the attached images. I'm guessing that they have probably been deleted and only the thumbnails remain. I don't think I'd be able to read the COA from the thumbnail even with a microscope!;)

"adssse, post: 97454" said:

Looking at the feet more, these dont appear to be mirrror images to me. The tassels or whatever you would call them look slightly different to me.

Good observation! You are right, they are different.

"adssse, post: 97454" said:

Also, does anyone know what the dark line (almost looks like an arrow) is on his torso/neck area is?

I was wondering the same thing. It looks like some kind of defect. Either the plastic has been damaged or something like glue or rubber band has melted. Can't be sure.

From the forum, I found this much information from "LiarDice", who started the thread. Here are some extracts of what he posted about the Mumm-Ra prototype:

"One of a kind Mumm Ra alternative sculpt resin hardcopy prototype. Cased and authenticated by UKG and with COA signed by the head of toy design at LJN Jose Longoria. He was featured on the pilot of Toy Hunter a few years ago.
This was the design they were playing around with for a more cartoon accurate mumm ra, cape would have been attached too.
I love this sculpt. LJN didn't carry on with it into production because he wouldn't have been able to hold weapons "

"The arms and legs are the only differences I could see from the produced piece. Crazy how those small changes can effect the look.
A small note about that piece. This is the only one known! Painted hard copies are very common because many were made for trade shows and salesman. The unproduced hard copies are rarer because they never reached further than the concept stage.
I know of 5 different Mad Bubbler's but only one of these"

"This mumm ra was created in the series three period of the toy line. Maybe even gearing up to be introduced in the series 4 which never came to light. I know this because of which LJN employee it came from. Also the fact it's the only piece that's never shown on any catalog or card back indicates to me it was a very late concept that never happened"

And he also mentioned a "Talking Panthro" Prototype, which I never heard of before:

"LJN were so ahead of their time. With larger scale figure that had various battle actions and of course the light up eyes. I wish they could have carried on. A while back I had a concept piece which was the 'talking Panthro' figure. So ahead of its time but never moved further than concepts. Electronics not small enough and still too pricey in mid 80's"

"There is a button in his back and would have been a small speaker hole in his TC logo belt buckle. There was this very basic conceptual mock up and then one that actually had electronics inside, but that one has since been hidden away by the secretive world of proto collectors"

"Battery was the problem because in the working mock up wires came out of his back and you had to connect to a larger 9v battery to make it work. Electronics just weren't small enough or cheaply made in that era. That concept, pictured, which I had, you could pop Panthro open in two halves. And there is actually quite a bit of room in the figures chest. I think they wanted you to be able to push a button in his back (shown on pic) and voice heard from a tiny pin hole in the logo in his belt."

"I remember now seeing an alternate sculpt for the Cats Lair head too. More detailed. It looked cool"
(I would love to see pics of that!)

I remember posting in that thread back then and being so excited about the talking Panthro (still am!). It really makes you wonder what they had in the works when the plug was pulled.

"adssse, post: 97467" said:

I remember posting in that thread back then and being so excited about the talking Panthro (still am!). It really makes you wonder what they had in the works when the plug was pulled.

Thundercats definitely had another series (maybe two) of figures they could have made. The gimmicks, sculpting and detail would have been even better as well.

It really would be interesting to see/read all the idea they still had.
I have seen various cancelled waves of figures from different toylines I collected and they all had highly demanded characters and improvements.
Bravestarr, Bucky O'Hare, Skeleton Warriors, Visionaries, Centurions, Avatar: The Last Airbender, Ewoks and even the Simpsons.

"Mark M, post: 97471" said:

Thundercats definitely had another series (maybe two) of figures they could have made. The gimmicks, sculpting and detail would have been even better as well.

I agree. I guess they pulled the plug on the toyline as soon as the cartoon ended (or soon after that). Which is why many advertised toys (like Feliner, Thunderstrike) never went into production. :(

Actually to tell you the truth, I really don't understand why they never made a season 3 of the cartoon itself? The show was still a hit with the children, the demand was high, they could have easily continued the success over at least one more season. Just imagine all the toys that would have come out during the run of season 3! :D

"Wilycub, post: 97493" said:

I agree. I guess they pulled the plug on the toyline as soon as the cartoon ended (or soon after that). Which is why many advertised toys (like Feliner, Thunderstrike) never went into production. :(

Actually to tell you the truth, I really don't understand why they never made a season 3 of the cartoon itself? The show was still a hit with the children, the demand was high, they could have easily continued the success over at least one more season. Just imagine all the toys that would have come out during the run of season 3! :D

There are so many figures and toys we could have got. Imagine if they had made a Castle Plundarr or Onyx Pyramid or even Sky Tomb. I would have even loved a Ro-Bear Berbil Village. :rolleyes: (what can I say, I liked the Ewoks)

A season three with a proper ending would have been brilliant. Learnt more of Plundarr and it's moons, more about Thundera and Mumm-Ra vanquished.

It's odd they didn't make season three like you said considering it was so popular. Especially when you consider how M.A.S.K. even got a second season. Granted it was only 10 episodes and very different from the other season, but they kept it going.

"Mark M, post: 97495" said:

There are so many figures and toys we could have got. Imagine if they had made a Castle Plundarr or Onyx Pyramid or even Sky Tomb.

They definitely should have made a Castle Plun-Darr. It's not fair that only the good guys get a home. What about the poor Mutants? ;) It would have looked so awesome standing next to Cats Lair. In my opinion, I think a Castle Plun-Darr playset should have been made instead of the Mumm-Ra's Tomb Fortress.

"Mark M, post: 97495" said:

I would have even loved a Ro-Bear Berbil Village. :rolleyes: (what can I say, I liked the Ewoks)

Me too! "Return of the Jedi" is my favorite Star Wars movie, something my friends never stop teasing me about! LOL! :D

"Mark M, post: 97495" said:

A season three with a proper ending would have been brilliant. Learnt more of Plundarr and it's moons, more about Thundera and Mumm-Ra vanquished.

It's odd they didn't make season three like you said considering it was so popular. Especially when you consider how M.A.S.K. even got a second season. Granted it was only 10 episodes and very different from the other season, but they kept it going.

Yes you are right. There was still so much of the ThunderCats universe that could have been explored in Season 3. Many other shows of the 80's which were less popular than TCats ran for much longer. "The Real Ghostbusters" ran for 7 season while "TMNT" had a whopping 10 seasons! :eek:

"Wilycub, post: 97498" said:

They definitely should have made a Castle Plun-Darr. It's not fair that only the good guys get a home. What about the poor Mutants? ;) It would have looked so awesome standing next to Cats Lair. In my opinion, I think a Castle Plun-Darr playset should have been made instead of the Mumm-Ra's Tomb Fortress.

Yessssss, Castle Plun-Darr would have been great to have! Also, can you imagine if they would have made a Mumm-ra's Pyramid in the same scale as Cats Lair instead of just the Tomb?

"Wilycub, post: 97498" said:

Yes you are right. There was still so much of the ThunderCats universe that could have been explored in Season 3. Many other shows of the 80's which were less popular than TCats ran for much longer. "The Real Ghostbusters" ran for 7 season while "TMNT" had a whopping 10 seasons! :eek:

Completely agree with you and Mark. Thundercats could have went on for quite a while after season 2 and still have been epic! There was so much to explore and almost anything goes in the Thundercats universe. I really would have liked to see some of the ideas thrown about in the thread explored. I have to think that at the time it was cancelled it had to still be one of the top rated in its genre (behind maybe MOTU and GI Joe, if that).

"adssse, post: 97499" said:

Yessssss, Castle Plun-Darr would have been great to have! Also, can you imagine if they would have made a Mumm-ra's Pyramid in the same scale as Cats Lair instead of just the Tomb?

That would have been something. Complete with Obelisks whose tips would light up!:thumbsup:

"adssse, post: 97499" said:

Completely agree with you and Mark. Thundercats could have went on for quite a while after season 2 and still have been epic! There was so much to explore and almost anything goes in the Thundercats universe. I really would have liked to see some of the ideas thrown about in the thread explored. I have to think that at the time it was cancelled it had to still be one of the top rated in its genre (behind maybe MOTU and GI Joe, if that).

Exactly. TCats cartoons were mainly created to promote the toys. They were almost like "glorified toy commercials". So naturally they played safe and the stories were mostly the "good vs evil" ones. But after season 2, the show had become so popular with a huge fan following, the writers could have afforded to explore some slightly mature plots and scenarios. Just think: the supposed death of a ThunderCat (who would turn up alive in the end of course!), one of the ThunderCats leaving the group (temporarily), the ThunderCats requiring Mumm-Ra's help to resolve a dangerous situation, etc etc. So much potential just waiting to be unleashed.

The thing with Ghostbusters and TMNT lasting so long though is the quality really deteriorated by the end.
The first couple seasons of Ghostbusters were good but got rather predictable in season 3.
TMNT pretty much lost it after season 4. There was still a couple good episodes each season, but most were unfunny with meaningless storylines. Pretty much you see one episode you've seen them all.

I really can't understand the mass popularity G.I. Joe had. The first two seasons were okay but the cartoon and comic both had the same problem of having far too many characters and never really building on the characters. It was always just pretty much one episode then they aren't seen again for ages.
Then the toy line.....it went drastically down hill. It started out as a small group of 13 elite soldiers then expanded to about 20 ish. But they were pretty much all military specialists in various fields. By the end they had snake people, Tiger Force, Python Patrol, Drug corps, eco squad, space brigade, street fighter....and of course along the way the uniforms all went bright neon colours.

Even though MOTU the cartoon ended they at least kept the toys going when there was still a market for them and released some of the best figures the line ever had.

"Mark M, post: 97503" said:

The thing with Ghostbusters and TMNT lasting so long though is the quality really deteriorated by the end.

You hit the nail right on the head there. A lot of the cartoon shows which lasted for more than 2 seasons really got worse towards the end. Not only storywise but also the art went downhill.

The first couple of seasons of TMNT were very good. Shredder was a scary and formidable opponent. By the end of the show's run he had been turned into a bumbling comedian, pretty much what they did to Mumm-Ra on TCats. They also introcduced a lot of unnecessary and weird characters (probably just to sell the toys!).

Same thing with Ghostbusters. The first dozen or so episodes were really scary and intense. Then later on they severely reduced the scare factor.

"Wilycub, post: 97505" said:

You hit the nail right on the head there. A lot of the cartoon shows which lasted for more than 2 seasons really got worse towards the end. Not only storywise but also the art went downhill.

The first couple of seasons of TMNT were very good. Shredder was a scary and formidable opponent. By the end of the show's run he had been turned into a bumbling comedian, pretty much what they did to Mumm-Ra on TCats. They also introcduced a lot of unnecessary and weird characters (probably just to sell the toys!).

Same thing with Ghostbusters. The first dozen or so episodes were really scary and intense. Then later on they severely reduced the scare factor.

It becomes a matter of quality over quantity. In terms of being scary and building characters, Extreme Ghostbusters is some what superior. But because it's not the original four it is always overlooked.

TMNT was terrible towards the end during their war with the Power Rangers....then of course it became the whole if you can't beat'em, join'em mentality with The Next Mutation. (So much so their was a TMNT Power Rangers cross over episode) :(
I owned the TMNT complete box set and it's only worth getting season 1-4. 4 being generous.

This might contradict something I posted earlier, maybe on this thread, but I don't really like the Lunataks, with the exception of Chilla.