Complete comics available to view at TCL - yay or nay? (REVIVED OLD THREAD - PLEASE READ!) :)

Hi all,

This is something that was raised at the end of last night's Team Meeting - but, by the time we got round to it, a lot of team members had had to leave, so I was only really able to discuss this with MannyF, Neil and Martin. It was agreed that I'd post a poll on this subject - so, here we go! :D

Recently, Queen Lynxana of EOT.net teamed up with Purrsia to make available online full issues of Star (Marvel) Comics' ThunderCats series. You can read the details in http://www.thundercatslair.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1819"" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">this thread. In that thread, both ladies have offered to include TCL in the hosting of these, i.e. they've offered to allow us to reproduce their full comic scans on this site, which I actually thought was very generous of them! :)

Now, this leaves me with a dilemma. Way back in the days when this site was just a forum, the team at the time had a discussion about the principle of making full comics available to read on this site, and it was unanimously decided against - the argument (which I agreed with) being that it could be compromising from the perspective of copyright. Now, Purrsia claims that WB themselves seem cool with the Star (Marvel) Comics being online on her site, and that's a big boost - however, there is still the "issue" (if you'll excuse the pun!) of how Marvel Comics themselves would feel about it. (Just so you guys know, Purrsia and Queen Lynxana have elected not to make any DC/Wildstorm issues available online, as they feel that, these having been published more recently, there may be more chance of legal difficulties there.)

All of this leaves me torn in two directions:

1) I'm concerned about the legality (from a copyright perspective) of making these comics available to view at TCL. Neil also made the point that, when you do that, you can devalue the collectibility of the original material you're making available online.

2) On the other hand, if we decline this offer, TCL is missing out on content that the other two main sites will both have (and are happy to share with us), and, by the material being hosted on those other two sites, the potential for devaluation damage is already done.

I've made this into a poll for ease - nonetheless, gentlemen, I'd appreciate any comments, thoughts, musings or suggestions you may have! :)

Take care, and speak soon! :)

I am in full support on making these available to the public. Depreciation is not determined by having them viewed but by making "bootleg" copies.I do realize the DC/Wildstorm Comics wouldnt be wise to have them available to read but I would attempt to contact DC/Wildstorm anyways to perhaps make them available to view online. It's worth the try. Having them displayed IMO does not depreciate the value of the comics but on the contrary it would give more people the chance to read them,give them exposure and make the people buy the comics.Some people do not buy the comics because A) Comics doesnt interest them or B)They want to know what the comics are like before purchasing them. Hopefully I made some kind of sense in this post :? but Im all up for displaying the older issues of Thundercats comics

Frankly I suggest putting them up with the same precautions that we are going to use when we put the scripts up. Watermarked and then hidden watermarks (like with the tounge a saurus instructions) so they can not be bootlegged. As far as marvel and everyone else having a fit, well I don't think that they can do anything about it. Since Chris owns them or somebody that owns them said we could use them. They are already bought and paid for and are personal property, which means the people that own them can do whatever they want with them. So yes lets put them up if our goal is the most indepth Thundercats coverage we can get.

I understand the ownership end of it, but I am still a little weary of the issue. Personally, I was never able to read the older comics and while Chris does an outstanding job of summarizing the comics, it is not the same as seeing the artwork go along with the story. So in that sense, I'd say yes, absolutely for complete comics to be viewable on TCL.

On the other end, sharing someone's property with permission is one thing, but having to infringe on copyright material is another. It is kind of like downloading music. I own the CD and upload the songs to share with everyone, but regardless of me owning the music, the companies that put out the songs aren't going to like it.

So just like in the meeting, I'm not very much help, but can still offer thoughts on the issue. :)

Chris here...

As usual, Manny speaks words of wisdom, guys - even though someone may buy a comic, they are not technically the copyright owner of that comic and not at liberty to reproduce it at will. It's the same thing as buying a DVD - if I buy a DVD, it's still copyright infringement if I duplicate copies of it for all my friends, or upload it to the Internet, or whatever. :)

Technically, you aren't legally allowed to make the interior pages of comics available to view online - hence why you can't just log on to any one of a hundred websites and read every issue of, say, The Amazing Spider-Man online. Believe me, I've looked, LOL! ;)

At the moment, the general consensus seems to be for us to host these comic scans that Purrsia and Queen Lynxana are offering to share with us, which is cool - whilst I still have reservations, I understand that folks don't want this site to "miss the boat". :) I still haven't made a final decision, but if we do go down this route, I'd like to suggest a couple of things:

1) Queen Lynxana has requested that credit be given to the person who has gone to the effort of scanning this material. I would 100% give full credit to the scans, and make it clear that these have been "generously donated" by Queen Lynxana of EOT.net! ;)

2) That all images be watermarked, as per Matt's suggestion.

3) That we investigate ways of encoding the images to disable "right-click download", a.k.a. "Save target as".

4) That we investigate "password protecting" access to the comics, so that to view them you have to sign up as a member of our forums - kind-of a "halfway house", if you like, between not having them and having them in the public domain.

Your thoughts on these suggestions, everybody? :)

Take care... :)

Chris if I may suggest something it would be to have something like a subscription on the forums. It is a feature that could and has been used by many forums to display things not available to guests.It is actually a feature that I think would be beneficial to the whole sforum rather than them having its own sub forums which I think could make them overcrowded. I'll look into that feature and will get back to you on it. I think it is very much a possibility and I also think that we need something like a disable for the right click option

EDIT: I looked into the subscriptions feature and nonetheless it is a feature were one would have to "pay" even though we would et the pay value at zero. The next best option is to make a subforum which would be locked to guests and accesible to members. I am not sure if a password protected section on the somics section of the site would be possible to do so I think the next best thing is to make a sub-forum with either password or user protected option

Chris here...

"MannysCollectibles, post: 12891" said:

Chris if I may suggest something it would be to have something like a subscription on the forums. It is a feature that could and has been used by many forums to display things not available to guests.It is actually a feature that I think would be beneficial to the whole sforum rather than them having its own sub forums which I think could make them overcrowded. I'll look into that feature and will get back to you on it. I think it is very much a possibility and I also think that we need something like a disable for the right click option

EDIT: I looked into the subscriptions feature and nonetheless it is a feature were one would have to "pay" even though we would et the pay value at zero. The next best option is to make a subforum which would be locked to guests and accesible to members. I am not sure if a password protected section on the somics section of the site would be possible to do so I think the next best thing is to make a sub-forum with either password or user protected option

Hmmm, this sounds like it could be the answer! :) In this way, dedicated ThunderCats fans would be able to access the comics via our forums, but they would still not be online for just any casual websurfer to stumble onto! :)

Of course, the downside of this is that, if Purrsia and EOT display them in a way that doesn't require forum membership/password access/etc., people are more likely to view the comics on those sites than ours - but, it's nonetheless a method I would feel happier employing, because of the copyright issues! :)

If anyone has any comments on either my or MannyC's thoughts and suggestions here, please can you LMK what you think? Many thanks! :)

Take care... :)

I can corroborate that EOT.net does not allow non-members to view online comics. My next suggestion would be to have a members only area. By doing that I hate to say it but it forces people to join if they want to view the comics or any other material we may have there. I am more than up for a members only area because I think it would increase membership and interaction

I voted nay, simply because I think it compromises the collectability of the item (s) in question. If folks have them handed to them on a plate free of charge then they won't bother buying or collecting the originals. Basically same reasoning behind my opinion I had with instructions and sticker sheets being available to print out. I know that other folks plan on putting them up and I know there is nothing we could do about that. However I still stand by my opinion that I feel it's wrong.

I have no idea what the copyright on these is at right now so who knows whether the copyright owners will care or not. I mean they can always easily be taken down if someone did make a complaint.

However I think Chris has his answer looking over the results of this poll :)

Chris here...

Having had a good think about this, and looking at the results of the poll, I've more or less made up my mind that the route I'd like to go down with this is to host the donated comic scans on TCL, but in a "members only"-type area of the site, whereby someone basically has to be a registered member of our forums to view the comics online, and they aren't accessible to just anyone who might casually surf in. I think this would serve two purposes:

1) It does ease my fears slightly about the copyright issue
2) It also provides an incentive for people to sign up to our forums! :D

I remember taking part in polls over at http://www.he-man.org"" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">www.he-man.org where you had to be a registered member of their forums to take part - is there a way that something similar could be implemented in this case? Please can you guys LMK? Many thanks! :)

Take care... :)

"He-Fan, post: 13004" said:

Chris here...

Having had a good think about this, and looking at the results of the poll, I've more or less made up my mind that the route I'd like to go down with this is to host the donated comic scans on TCL, but in a "members only"-type area of the site, whereby someone basically has to be a registered member of our forums to view the comics online, and they aren't accessible to just anyone who might casually surf in. I think this would serve two purposes:

1) It does ease my fears slightly about the copyright issue
2) It also provides an incentive for people to sign up to our forums! :D

I remember taking part in polls over at http://www.he-man.org"" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">www.he-man.org where you had to be a registered member of their forums to take part - is there a way that something similar could be implemented in this case? Please can you guys LMK? Many thanks! :)

Take care... :)

Very cool Chris, as you may notice The Great Void is an area for people who request access. The members only area would have similar user access but the only difference is that it could be enable so that when a member signs up they automatically have access to the members only area. If they are not members then they wont be able to gain access. Ill do a test run and see how it goes

EDIT: As you may notice on the front page the forum has been created and the only people right now able to view it is TCL Team Members. After the contents are made available online I can pull the switch and make it accessible to members only

I'm a bit late! But I'll offer my opinion, I have to say I was thinking about voting No originally, as I was much of the same opinion as Neil. But, if the comics are out there, and we've been offered them, seems like it's just all the more features the site has, on the other hand, if we didn't host them, I don't think it would be too much of a loss. :)

Chris here...

OK, first of all can I apologise for not responding to this thread earlier - I've been suffering for the past few days with a heavy cold that has reduced my brain to mush (even more so than usual, anyway!), and so I'm not as "on the ball" as I should be! :) I just didn't want anyone to think I was ignoring MannyC's post...! ;)

First up, MannyC, that's brilliant what you've created with the "Members Only" area, top man! I think this is exactly the right solution to this dilemma, and you've done a first class job helping me out with this, thank you! :)

My next question is, how shall the pages be displayed in the Members area - i.e., will they be posted up in a thread back-to-back, or how will that side of things work? Remember that if possible I'd like to encode these to prevent people from hitting "Save target as" and downloading these to their hard drives - can someone LMK if that's possible to achieve? Many thanks! :)

A final thought here on the subject of the collectibility of these things possibly being damaged by being online - whilst I definitely understand (and to a large extent agree with) that train of thought, the only thing I'd say is that I know that for a lot of comic collectors the appeal of owning a comic is the actual act of collecting it, and feeling as though it's another piece of their collection. Plus, some comics fans like me actually enjoy owning comics in paper form - about 400 or so issues of The Amazing Spider-Man are available (legally) to buy on one, attractively-priced CD-ROM, but I've never bought it because for me the attraction of getting those stories is to have them in a printed form, ideally in their original printings! :) So, I'm not saying it couldn't have an adverse effect, but I don't think it will be a major problem... :)

Take care... :)

Hey Chris, I figured that you mustve been either A) Extremely busy or B) Sick : At this point I wouldnt know how to disable the "save target as" feature but I think that the images that we get from the comics which will be in JPG format should be changed into PDF format. I think the best candidates to tackle on the "save target as" issue would be MannyF or Kyle, unless of course someone else knows how to do this. I will be looking into the disabling issue and if I am able to learn how to do that then I will let you know. For now I think that issue is MannyF and Kyle's expertise if im not mistaken

Chris here...

"MannysCollectibles, post: 13092" said:

Hey Chris, I figured that you mustve been either A) Extremely busy or B) Sick :

Cool, glad to know that that's OK my friend! :)

"MannysCollectibles, post: 13092" said:

At this point I wouldnt know how to disable the "save target as" feature but I think that the images that we get from the comics which will be in JPG format should be changed into PDF format. I think the best candidates to tackle on the "save target as" issue would be MannyF or Kyle, unless of course someone else knows how to do this. I will be looking into the disabling issue and if I am able to learn how to do that then I will let you know. For now I think that issue is MannyF and Kyle's expertise if im not mistaken

That's cool - I'll have a chat with both gentlemen about it and see if they're able to offer any insight or suggestions! :)

Thanks again for all your help, MannyC! :)

Take care... :)

To kind of revive this thread I will post what I have been able to do the past few hours. I scanned the very 1st issue of the Star Series comic. I then disabled a good deal of features that would make it it tough for someone to edit or even print the documnet. No matter what you do the document can be saved even with disabling the "save target as" feature. I have done it with several websites (Rankin Bass for example and managed to get past their disabling feature for saving documents using right click). However I changed some security features on the file where one would not be able to even see any menus or tool bars iff the person decided that they want to print it. The person cant even copy the page itself and basically the only feature they would get is if they want to zoom in or zoom out. I will post the file on the Members only area and I ask any of he members to save the file via right clik and attempt to open it and you will notice that none of the tools or menu bars are available. They are not watermarked and truthfully I dont think its even necessary. Someone savvy enough with computer sklills can get rid of them. Anyways, give the file a try and let me know if its coolwith you all. I can then continue scanning the other ones and we can release maybe 1 per week. Fresh content brings people back :)

EDIT:I realize that comics is Chris' baby but I figured I'd help out with this. I know that the saving feature may be a problem but regardless there is a way around it. Even dummies like me can figure it out so I think that rather than waiting to come up with a solution to prevent people to save the files we can just start putting up the comics and let peole enjoy them. I really cant see people trying to profit from selling disks of comic books online. I think if anyone saves them they will do so to read them at their own leisure.

Hey Manny is it possible to put the eComics in the Comics directory (FTP)? It's just I'd like to keep things categorized otherwise things start to get cluttered in the main directory. With all the new ideas and sections being passed around, I really want to keep things orderly, uploading-wise. Hope this is okay. :)

As for concerns of people saving these files, it just comes with the territory. I think my problem with this is, what is the point of putting this in a member-only forum when people can just directly link to it or post the link on other sites? It defeats the purpose of making it member-only.

For example, say Chris has access to the eComics. All he has to do is post the link on the He-Man.org forums and everyone basically has access to the comics. They would pretty much bypass the whole giving authorization part.

If I may offer another solution, I can make the directory password-protected similar to how we have the staff directory password-protected. This way, the linking from other sites would be prohibited. Then to prevent from having the password circulated, we can either change the password monthly or every other month to prevent those who don't have access to the member-only forum.

In my opinion, I like the idea of allowing authorized people to download and read the comics through a member-only forum, but my concern is that unless the content is actually viewed through the thread, then it kind of defeats the purpose.

I hope I make sense. I do want to provide this content, but to do so in a manner which is a benefit to both the site and the comic fan.

I think putting the eComics in the comics directory is actually the best idea and like you said things are organized that way. Didnt really cross my mind. As far as your other solutions for making it a bit harder for non members to access these files I totally 100% support it. I could only do so much on my side but if you can do something like password protect the eComics directory that would be great. My question would be if the members would have to type in the password every time they attempt to view the file. If thats the case it can get a bit bothersome but nonetheless it is a security feature that everyone has to bearwith. I will move the folder to the comics directory and if you can password protect that directory that would be great and we can get this started with the first issue of the Star Series.

Cool. Let's get Chris' thoughts on all of this and if he wants some changes or if he's okay with what we discussed, then we can go ahead and I'll make the directory password protected. Let's get Chris' stamp of approval first. :)

"Manny, post: 13302" said:

Cool. Let's get Chris' thoughts on all of this and if he wants some changes or if he's okay with what we discussed, then we can go ahead and I'll make the directory password protected. Let's get Chris' stamp of approval first. :)

Very much agreed. I do think he may be a bit shocked that the first one is ready to go. Even though we were offered the documents to host here as well Im more inclined to scan our own simply because I can manipulate what features are available for people to use when they open the file. But I do agree with you that Chris' approval should be foremost. In the mean time I have posted the 1st issue on the respective area of the members only section but I have edited the user options where nobody can see that area except us