'WTF' moments in Thundercats eps.

One of the most WTF episodes for me was "Chain of Loyalty", as writers somehow equated "loyalty" with "wrath" or "killer instinct" or somehing like that. Just because the Chain got broken, it doesn't mean they had to attack each other, as not being loyal to someone doesn't mean you want to kill that someone. As if the TCs were a bunch of savages before being annointed and were held ike that by a chain that, once broken, returned them to their savages selves.

Do I make any sense here? Lol

"Tygra_Rules, post: 102776, member: 9228" said:

One of the most WTF episodes for me was "Chain of Loyalty", as writers somehow equated "loyalty" with "wrath" or "killer instinct" or somehing like that. Just because the Chain got broken, it doesn't mean they had to attack each other, as not being loyal to someone doesn't mean you want to kill that someone. As if the TCs were a bunch of savages before being annointed and were held ike that by a chain that, once broken, returned them to their savages selves.

Do I make any sense here? Lol

That episode was just poorly written. It contradicted the ThunderCats' code as a whole.

"Tygra_Rules, post: 102776, member: 9228" said:

One of the most WTF episodes for me was "Chain of Loyalty", as writers somehow equated "loyalty" with "wrath" or "killer instinct" or somehing like that. Just because the Chain got broken, it doesn't mean they had to attack each other, as not being loyal to someone doesn't mean you want to kill that someone. As if the TCs were a bunch of savages before being annointed and were held ike that by a chain that, once broken, returned them to their savages selves.

Do I make any sense here? Lol

I only watched that episode once back in 2008 and I recall not liking it.

I remember finding that episode extremely dodgy. Both the way that breaking it made them fight, and the way the catchphrase just fixed it up right as rain.

"Daremonger, post: 102777, member: 25241" said:

That episode was just poorly written. It contradicted the ThunderCats' code as a whole.

So true!

"Tygra_Rules, post: 102776, member: 9228" said:

One of the most WTF episodes for me was "Chain of Loyalty", as writers somehow equated "loyalty" with "wrath" or "killer instinct" or somehing like that. Just because the Chain got broken, it doesn't mean they had to attack each other, as not being loyal to someone doesn't mean you want to kill that someone. As if the TCs were a bunch of savages before being annointed and were held ike that by a chain that, once broken, returned them to their savages selves.

Do I make any sense here? Lol

Great point you make, Tygra_Rules! :) That's surely one of the weaker episodes in the series. What bugs me most about it is that, as you pointed out, the breaking of the chain should not equate to the Cats trying to kill each other. Also it means that the ThunderCats, in reality, HATE each other from the bottom of their hearts, and it is only the chain which keeps them "good". That just doesn't make sense! The writers made the heroes of the show, intrinsically evil, who only act normal due to the effects of an intact piece of jewellery. That makes the ThunderCats worse than Mumm-Ra and the Mutants and the Lunataks!! :00

And lets not forget:

• Tygra's "unable to swim unless invisible" thing (maybe the biggest WTF moment of the whole series)
• Cheetara learning how / being able to control her sixt sense in one episode, and then suffer from it again the next one ("Sixth Sense" and "Telepathy Beam")
• Tygra not turning invisible when it would have become really useful ("Mumm-Ra Berbil", "Safari Joe") even against the other TCs ("Mad Bubbler", "Chain of Loyalty")
• Snarf and the kittens feeling old / useless / not taken seriously every three episodes, even when the TCs reassured them over and over again.
• The whole "If the Mutants / Lunattacks learnt how to do team work..." As I see it, the meanies worked in team everytime (sometimes even more than the TCs themselves). I mean, nothing made the Mutants work and live together, right?
• Snarfer going for some Mexican food...

"Tygra_Rules, post: 102786, member: 9228" said:

And lets not forget:

• Tygra's "unable to swim unless invisible" thing (maybe the biggest WTF moment of the whole series)
• Cheetara learning how / being able to control her sixt sense in one episode, and then suffer from it again the next one ("Sixth Sense" and "Telepathy Beam")
• Tygra not turning invisible when it would have become really useful ("Mumm-Ra Berbil", "Safari Joe") even against the other TCs ("Mad Bubbler", "Chain of Loyalty")
• Snarf and the kittens feeling old / useless / not taken seriously every three episodes, even when the TCs reassured them over and over again.
• The whole "If the Mutants / Lunattacks learnt how to do team work..." As I see it, the meanies worked in team everytime (sometimes even more than the TCs themselves). I mean, nothing made the Mutants work and live together, right?
• Snarfer going for some Mexican food...

At the end of "Mechanical Plague," Panthro said there was a "hidden Hamlet" in every comic, and in "Return of the ThunderCubs," Slithe mentions Sherlock Holmes.

And one episode in season 4, I think it's the one where Two-Time appears for the second time, Panthro mentions the idea of building a golf course (and I think way back in "The Fireballs Of Plun-Darr" he calls Bushy a big hairy baseball!).

"Tygra_Rules, post: 102786, member: 9228" said:

And lets not forget:

• Tygra's "unable to swim unless invisible" thing (maybe the biggest WTF moment of the whole series)
• Cheetara learning how / being able to control her sixt sense in one episode, and then suffer from it again the next one ("Sixth Sense" and "Telepathy Beam")
• Tygra not turning invisible when it would have become really useful ("Mumm-Ra Berbil", "Safari Joe") even against the other TCs ("Mad Bubbler", "Chain of Loyalty")
• Snarf and the kittens feeling old / useless / not taken seriously every three episodes, even when the TCs reassured them over and over again.
• The whole "If the Mutants / Lunattacks learnt how to do team work..." As I see it, the meanies worked in team everytime (sometimes even more than the TCs themselves). I mean, nothing made the Mutants work and live together, right?
• Snarfer going for some Mexican food...

Ah yes I definitely recall Snarfer going for Mexican. :confused
Did you notice a lot of the WTF moments are after Starr left. ;) Lawrence really should have done a better job of editing these scripts.

"LiamABC, post: 102794, member: 25438" said:

And one episode in season 4, I think it's the one where Two-Time appears for the second time, Panthro mentions the idea of building a golf course (and I think way back in "The Fireballs Of Plun-Darr" he calls Bushy a big hairy baseball!).

Lion-O inadvertantly left behind the Claw Shield in that episode but had the Sword of Omens. After he summons the other ThunderCats in Castle Plun-Darr, the sword just goes back from longsword mode to dagger mode. Those are two other strange things about the episode.

"Mark M, post: 102796, member: 5058" said:

Did you notice a lot of the WTF moments are after Starr left. ;) Lawrence really should have done a better job of editing these scripts.

I totally agree with you there. I think the problem was the choice of writers that Rankin/Bass hired for the later Seasons of ThunderCats. Most of the first Season had terrific writing which translated into fantastic episodes because most of the writers were experienced comic book writers as well, like Leonard Starr. They had written many superhero stories for big comic companies like Marvel and DC and knew about action and pacing and characterization as well as creating interesting and exciting plots.

For the later Seasons, Rankin/Bass hired a lot of people who had very little experience in writing for shows like ThunderCats and had mostly written for cartoons like "My Little Pony", "Care Bears", "Smurfs" etc. The result? Episodes like "Ma-Mutt's Confusion" in which Mumm-Ra and Ma-Mutt seem to be more like Gargamel and Azrael! :00 Picking the wrong type of writers is what I believe led to many sub-par episodes in the later Season and overall decline in the quality of ThunderCats.

And I also agree with your point about Peter Lawrence. He sometimes gave too much leeway to writers like William Overgard, who had a tendency to go grossly overboard. I'm pretty sure that Snarfer going for Mexican was one of his episodes. :)

"Wilycub, post: 102803, member: 25043" said:

I totally agree with you there. I think the problem was the choice of writers that Rankin/Bass hired for the later Seasons of ThunderCats. Most of the first Season had terrific writing which translated into fantastic episodes because most of the writers were experienced comic book writers as well, like Leonard Starr. They had written many superhero stories for big comic companies like Marvel and DC and knew about action and pacing and characterization as well as creating interesting and exciting plots.

For the later Seasons, Rankin/Bass hired a lot of people who had very little experience in writing for shows like ThunderCats and had mostly written for cartoons like "My Little Pony", "Care Bears", "Smurfs" etc. The result? Episodes like "Ma-Mutt's Confusion" in which Mumm-Ra and Ma-Mutt seem to be more like Gargamel and Azrael! :00 Picking the wrong type of writers is what I believe led to many sub-par episodes in the later Season and overall decline in the quality of ThunderCats.

And I also agree with your point about Peter Lawrence. He sometimes gave too much leeway to writers like William Overgard, who had a tendency to go grossly overboard. I'm pretty sure that Snarfer going for Mexican was one of his episodes. :)

The Mexican part in the "Sideswipe" episode did crack me up. :3

"Wilycub, post: 102803, member: 25043" said:

I totally agree with you there. I think the problem was the choice of writers that Rankin/Bass hired for the later Seasons of ThunderCats. Most of the first Season had terrific writing which translated into fantastic episodes because most of the writers were experienced comic book writers as well, like Leonard Starr. They had written many superhero stories for big comic companies like Marvel and DC and knew about action and pacing and characterization as well as creating interesting and exciting plots.

For the later Seasons, Rankin/Bass hired a lot of people who had very little experience in writing for shows like ThunderCats and had mostly written for cartoons like "My Little Pony", "Care Bears", "Smurfs" etc. The result? Episodes like "Ma-Mutt's Confusion" in which Mumm-Ra and Ma-Mutt seem to be more like Gargamel and Azrael! :00 Picking the wrong type of writers is what I believe led to many sub-par episodes in the later Season and overall decline in the quality of ThunderCats.

And I also agree with your point about Peter Lawrence. He sometimes gave too much leeway to writers like William Overgard, who had a tendency to go grossly overboard. I'm pretty sure that Snarfer going for Mexican was one of his episodes. :)

I recall reading Overgard's work was some of the best and some of the worst of Thundercats. Of the 14 episodes he wrote I really liked 4 of them.

"Mark M, post: 102805, member: 5058" said:

I recall reading Overgard's work was some of the best and some of the worst of Thundercats. Of the 14 episodes he wrote I really liked 4 of them.

I like his "Mandora" and "Thunder-Cutter" episodes from season one the most.

"Daremonger, post: 102807, member: 25241" said:

I like his "Mandora" and "Thunder-Cutter" episodes from season one the most.

I agree. He introduced some really great characters to the series (I wont mention Capt Bragg).

Yeah, as years went on, I just think Overgard wore Peter Lawrence out until he started letting some of the more zany ideas through. I think Overgard had some really good ideas and his writing, in my opinion, is actually really good. For better or worse, his special "style" is part of what gives Thundercats its overall flavor, even though I know some despise a lot of his ideas and episodes. I agree he could be hit or miss. He is most guilty of just not showing a lot of attention to established continuity, like in "Exile Isle" where all of a sudden the Thundercats can magically teleport the Lunatacs to a planet described as "very far away". I admit those moments do have a way of taking me out of the story and going, well, WTF? However, having seen all the episodes and knowing whats gonna happen, I can now appreciate Overgard for his contributions. Peter Lawrence once mentioned how Overgard would want to write almost entirely for his own characters and he had to be reminded to include the Thundercats characters more. That shows in episodes like "Mandora, The Evil Chaser", "Mandora and the Pirates", "The Thundercutter", "Side Swipe" etc. His episodes tended to surround his own characters with Lion-O (or Lynx-O) along for the ride. I will say the man seemed to be filled with imagination and Thundercats wouldn't be the same without him.

In fact, in lining up his episodes, the one that really, REALLY stands out is "Book of Omens", which shows that he knew when it was time to get serious. I know reviews for "Book of Omens" are mixed, but ya gotta admit that it doesn't really have any of the typical, Overgard WTF? moments and it appropriately focuses on the Thundercats and Mumm-Ra instead of any side characters.

"ButterflyBoy, post: 102815, member: 16168" said:

Yeah, as years went on, I just think Overgard wore Peter Lawrence out until he started letting some of the more zany ideas through. I think Overgard had some really good ideas and his writing, in my opinion, is actually really good. For better or worse, his special "style" is part of what gives Thundercats its overall flavor, even though I know some despise a lot of his ideas and episodes. I agree he could be hit or miss. He is most guilty of just not showing a lot of attention to established continuity, like in "Exile Isle" where all of a sudden the Thundercats can magically teleport the Lunatacs to a planet described as "very far away". I admit those moments do have a way of taking me out of the story and going, well, WTF? However, having seen all the episodes and knowing whats gonna happen, I can now appreciate Overgard for his contributions. Peter Lawrence once mentioned how Overgard would want to write almost entirely for his own characters and he had to be reminded to include the Thundercats characters more. That shows in episodes like "Mandora, The Evil Chaser", "Mandora and the Pirates", "The Thundercutter", "Side Swipe" etc. His episodes tended to surround his own characters with Lion-O (or Lynx-O) along for the ride. I will say the man seemed to be filled with imagination and Thundercats wouldn't be the same without him.

In fact, in lining up his episodes, the one that really, REALLY stands out is "Book of Omens", which shows that he knew when it was time to get serious. I know reviews for "Book of Omens" are mixed, but ya gotta admit that it doesn't really have any of the typical, Overgard WTF? moments and it appropriately focuses on the Thundercats and Mumm-Ra instead of any side characters.

I take your point about focusing more on his own characters. Looking at the list of episodes he wrote, I see what you mean.

The Fireballs Of Plun-Darr
Probably the only exception to this, although Willa does play a major role - primarily as Lion-O forgets the claw shield, so she gets them up with her spider.

Mandora - The Evil Chaser
Mandora And The Pirates
Sideswipe
all focus more on Mandora, and where applicable, guest villains.

Dr Dometone
again, this puts the spotlight on the good doctor, and especially his robot, Herky.

The Thunder-Cutter
Sword In A Hole
less so here - these introduced memorable guest characters who would return in season 2, but not at the expense of the regulars. My main problem with Sword In A Hole is Lion-O's using the catchphrase when not holding the sword. Bringing me neatly to . . .

Exile Isle
I haven't got up to this one yet, but I remember watching it, and going, "no, No, NO!" when Lion-O used the catchphrase when the sword was light-years away. I'm pretty sure these two episodes by Overgard are the only two occasions where this happens. The remaining episodes too are from memories of 2008-9, so some of them may be a little patchy, but here goes . . .

The Jade Dragon
WTF? Seriously, Hachiman has suddenly developed some serious superpowers here - in his previous appearances, he was just a regular guy with a mystical sword. Suddenly, he jumps onto his steed and magically rides through space with no need for oxygen (this also happened in Mandora And The Pirates and Sword In A Hole, I guess Overgard was sick that day in science class).

The Circus Train
Again, WTF? Both the Mutants and Lunataks are rounded up and largely removed from the show with finger-snapping ease by this guest character. After all the trouble they've caused the Thundercats over three seasons (two for the Lunataks), this guest character of Overgard's just turns up and imprisons them all just like that. It's like he's blowing a raspberry at our heroes. It's one thing to have a guest character save the day when there is a genuine struggle going on at the time, but this is something else.

Screw Loose
Cracker's Revenge
Swan Song
I can't remember anything about these, so can't as yet comment.

The Book Of Omens
considering that it is the series finale, it does do all that is required of it. Whether you like the episode or not (and I can't remember if I do or not!), it does tick all the boxes on a technical scale. All the main characters are made use of (at least, all the main characters living on New Thundera), the stakes are incredibly high, and it does go into some stuff from past episodes, mainly the mythology of the book, but still, it is a bit more grounded in the Thundercats' world than some.

Yap, notice Overgard is the only one who keeps bringing Captain Cracker back haha. But even in those episodes like "Sword in the Hole", Overgard tended to pick one or two Thundercats (Usually one had to be Lion-O) and the rest are lucky if they get to show up at the end.

Its interesting that he never did a follow-up with Captain Shiner, who even had an action figure the show needed to push. And as we can see, he loves to revisit his characters.

Yes, I noticed that, Cracker only turned up in Overgard's episodes.

Interesting indeed about no real follow-up with Shiner. He was one of the most interesting guest characters the show had - his reappearance in Thundercats Ho! was a tragic misuse of his character. In his first appearance he had that moral ambiguity of being a mercenary willing to do evil things for money, but not evil at heart. When he came back, he was just a straight villain.