ThunderCats Rewatch Episode 7-8 Discussion

[CENTER]Episode 7-8: Legacy, The Duelist and the Drifter
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As the Thundercats relax outside the Tower of Omens, Lion-O thinks the Book of Omens is tech rather than magic. He attempts to power it up, and is zapped and meets Jaga´s essence inside. He travels back in time in the form of his ancestor named Leo to find out what happend generations ago. Tygra and Panthro later works on the ThunderTank while Lion-O is searching for supplies. He encounters a mysterious Drifter who helps teach a few important lessons. After showing off The Sword of Omens in town, Lion-O is challenged by a man known as The Duelist and must overcome himself in order to win.

Hey everyone.

This week has been very hectic for me with work and other stuff. It's also not easy to put up an episode discussion when the website has been down (which is the reason this one is delayed). It's all fixed now and we can get back on schedule! Last week we were not so keen on the flashback heavy episodes and one of the episodes today focuses on that so it's going to be interesting to see what we think of it.

Other than that. Sorry for the delay even if it was not my fault and enjoy this weeks batch of episodes!

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First of all I just noticed the relationship between Claudis, Lion-O and Tygra is a bit like Odin, Thor and Loki.

Anyway, Legacy. Probably the best episode in the series so far. However, again it isn't exactly an important regarding the quest, although it does show them that they have to get the stones of power.
I disliked the way Lion-O seen it through his ancestors eyes. I think this episode would have just worked better as a dream.
Another episode with a looooooooooong flash back that has been more interesting than any of the present stories.
I liked the inclusion of Rob Paulsen (TMNT's Raphael(80's) and Donatello (2012) ) and Cree Summer (she played Max the best friend of Will Friedle's Batman in Batman Beyond) as Panthera.
The battle in space was very cool and the history of the forging of the blade.
Like I said all in all this is the best episode in the series so far.

The Duelist and the Drifter is another okay episode, that could probably have been one of the best in the series if no for some really stupid things.
If this had been further on in the show it would have been better.
We seen how Lion-O was not the greatest swordsman in the pilot, yet here he learns some new sword fighting techniques and displays some great mastery with the sword yet never displays it again throughout the series.
Also with it being another Lion-O episode, and the placing of the episode in the series it is quite predictable.
This episode did have some nice humour and interesting characters.
But I think this episode would have benefitted from being further in the series or featuring Tygra or Cheetara as the lead instead if it was going to be so early in the series as it would help build their characters and make them more interesting.

Interesting points. I've just finished watching these two episodes, and so far . . .

Legacy - definitely the series' high point so far, I agree on that. This is the episode that really gave us the full backstory. I don't agree though with the idea of a dream working better. Because it's going into massive detail on the backstory, they couldn't tell it in flashback because it would have taken attention too far away from the main here-and-now characters. The way Lion-O has to re-enact his great-great-however-many-times-grandfather's role in history does actually work, and the whole "entering the Book of Omens" thing does have a precedent in the original series.

The space battle between Leo and Mumm-Ra at the end just made me think of Star Wars (in a good way!). And as has been alluded to on another thread, the whole "quest for powerful gems" angle is very evocative of The Pirates Of Dark Water (well worth a watch if you've never seen it).

The Duelist And The Drifter - I agree with the point that there's been too much attention on Lion-O at the expense of the other characters so far this series. Apart from some flashbacks regarding Grune and Panthro in "Old Friends", and the Kittens talking about Eldara in the pilot, there's not really been any proper character focus on anyone except Lion-O, and this episode does continue that. In fact, in both these episodes, nobody else gets a look-in, the others have no lines at all in the previous episode and virtually the same here, Panthro and Tygra have about two lines each. The storyline here is pretty predictable. Although the two eponymous guest characters are interesting. I've been rewatching "Due South" recently, and can't help but think Gordon Pinsent (the ghost of Fraser's father) would have been a shade better casting for the Drifter than Stephen Root.

Speaking of voices, this episode is the best illustration yet as to why it was a bad idea to not make Snarf able to speak. You could just imagine the original Snarf having plenty to say in this episode. The basic concept is equivalent to original episodes such as "Safari Joe" and "The Demolisher", and while I said before that this story is fairly straightforward, I'd rate it higher than its original counterparts.

The trouble with this episode is the same as with "Ramlak Rising", that it's a standalone episode right after an important slice of the big story. The problem with this show as a whole is that they didn't quite get enough big story momentum early on. If they'd done that, then things might have been different. Although it would have been good to see one or both these two guest characters again.

"LiamABC, post: 108241, member: 25438" said:

Interesting points. I've just finished watching these two episodes, and so far . . .

Legacy - definitely the series' high point so far, I agree on that. This is the episode that really gave us the full backstory. I don't agree though with the idea of a dream working better. Because it's going into massive detail on the backstory, they couldn't tell it in flashback because it would have taken attention too far away from the main here-and-now characters. The way Lion-O has to re-enact his great-great-however-many-times-grandfather's role in history does actually work, and the whole "entering the Book of Omens" thing does have a precedent in the original series.

The space battle between Leo and Mumm-Ra at the end just made me think of Star Wars (in a good way!). And as has been alluded to on another thread, the whole "quest for powerful gems" angle is very evocative of The Pirates Of Dark Water (well worth a watch if you've never seen it).

The Duelist And The Drifter - I agree with the point that there's been too much attention on Lion-O at the expense of the other characters so far this series. Apart from some flashbacks regarding Grune and Panthro in "Old Friends", and the Kittens talking about Eldara in the pilot, there's not really been any proper character focus on anyone except Lion-O, and this episode does continue that. In fact, in both these episodes, nobody else gets a look-in, the others have no lines at all in the previous episode and virtually the same here, Panthro and Tygra have about two lines each. The storyline here is pretty predictable. Although the two eponymous guest characters are interesting. I've been rewatching "Due South" recently, and can't help but think Gordon Pinsent (the ghost of Fraser's father) would have been a shade better casting for the Drifter than Stephen Root.

Speaking of voices, this episode is the best illustration yet as to why it was a bad idea to not make Snarf able to speak. You could just imagine the original Snarf having plenty to say in this episode. The basic concept is equivalent to original episodes such as "Safari Joe" and "The Demolisher", and while I said before that this story is fairly straightforward, I'd rate it higher than its original counterparts.

The trouble with this episode is the same as with "Ramlak Rising", that it's a standalone episode right after an important slice of the big story. The problem with this show as a whole is that they didn't quite get enough big story momentum early on. If they'd done that, then things might have been different. Although it would have been good to see one or both these two guest characters again.

I agree with most of your points. Except about the dream not working. I mean there have been a lot of episodes that have done episodes showing a dream sequence of the past where it has worked extremely well like in the MOTU 2OOX cartoon episdoe The Power of Greyskull which was probably the best episode of the series.
But yes it would have been better for the quest to get going a lot sooner and quicker.
Completely agree about Snarf he would have had some amazing dialogue with Lion-O entering a duel with his life on the line.

Actually I've just remembered, there's a better original parallel to The Duelist And The Drifter, and that's "Excalibur"! Careless of me to forget!

"LiamABC, post: 108282, member: 25438" said:

Actually I've just remembered, there's a better original parallel to The Duelist And The Drifter, and that's "Excalibur"! Careless of me to forget!

Another good way of making the Duelist a real threat and a more interesting character would have been for Lion-o not to defeat him but have the others/drifter interfere and interrupt the fight then after Lion-o grows and develops his fighting skills has a rematch with the Duelist.

I must say that Legacy must be my favorite episode so far. I remember liking this episode when it first aired as well because of the great backstory that comes with it. I know a lot of Thundercats fans like it because "it's not Thundercats" which i can understand. But looking at it from a story stand point i think it's great. The only thing i don't like is something similar to what Mark M was talking about. I don't like the fact that Lion-O embodies Leo´s body and have to do the same thing he does. It would have been better if Lion-O was just watching to learn of the history and make Leo his own character. The episode would went from great to excellent if that was the case as i thought it was a bit boring and weird having Lion-O go through it all.

"Here let me show you..." Moves Lion-O out of the "house". Great move!

I must say i really like The Duelist and The Drifter episode. While i can agree the placement of said episode is a bit dumb i still think it's a very good one. I really liked the idea of a sword village the duelist and the drifter and Lion-O learning some lessons.

The one thing i think should have been changed is some of the characterizations of the duelist. I think he should have been more of an "honor" kind of guy. He was made out to be a villain but I would have liked it more if he was only a good swordsman that really liked to collect swords from around the world, which made him challenge many fighters, get better and then also win their weapon. It's a fair exchange and it seems weird that they made him out to be a bad guy.

The only problem with "The Duelist and The Drifter" is that it again comes directly after an important story episode and adds nothing to the overall story. It has some world building and character progress with Lion-O and i for some reason think that this would not have been the last time we would have seen the drifter. Would have been cool if he returned later down the line to smith for Lion-Os army before they fight Mumm-ra. That's also when the story of what Lion-O did at the village with the sword and stuff to come out and everyone of his fellow cats calling him stupid.

Overall i think this is one of the best pair of episodes we've had. There is some placement issues and other things i did not like but overall i still liked them.

'

"Rizefall, post: 108347, member: 24745" said:

I must say that Legacy must be my favorite episode so far. I remember liking this episode when it first aired as well because of the great backstory that comes with it. I know a lot of Thundercats fans like it because "it's not Thundercats" which i can understand. But looking at it from a story stand point i think it's great. The only thing i don't like is something similar to what Mark M was talking about. I don't like the fact that Lion-O embodies Leo´s body and have to do the same thing he does. It would have been better if Lion-O was just watching to learn of the history and make Leo his own character. The episode would went from great to excellent if that was the case as i thought it was a bit boring and weird having Lion-O go through it all.

"Here let me show you..." Moves Lion-O out of the "house". Great move!

I must say i really like The Duelist and The Drifter episode. While i can agree the placement of said episode is a bit dumb i still think it's a very good one. I really liked the idea of a sword village the duelist and the drifter and Lion-O learning some lessons.

The one thing i think should have been changed is some of the characterizations of the duelist. I think he should have been more of an "honor" kind of guy. He was made out to be a villain but I would have liked it more if he was only a good swordsman that really liked to collect swords from around the world, which made him challenge many fighters, get better and then also win their weapon. It's a fair exchange and it seems weird that they made him out to be a bad guy.

The only problem with "The Duelist and The Drifter" is that it again comes directly after an important story episode and adds nothing to the overall story. It has some world building and character progress with Lion-O and i for some reason think that this would not have been the last time we would have seen the drifter. Would have been cool if he returned later down the line to smith for Lion-Os army before they fight Mumm-ra. That's also when the story of what Lion-O did at the village with the sword and stuff to come out and everyone of his fellow cats calling him stupid.

Overall i think this is one of the best pair of episodes we've had. There is some placement issues and other things i did not like but overall i still liked them.

'

Liam and I were talking about these episodes on Facebook also and one thing we came up with was both characters coming back in later episodes. I think it was me, I could be wrong but the suggestion of the Sword of Omens getting damaged and the Drifter having to fix it or make a new one.

I found my notes today from when I watched the 2011 series in the summer of 2014 with markings for each episode out of 10. Some I would probably mark lower now than when I watched them It will be interesting to see how the next episodes compare to the score I gave them last time.

I think that was discussed when the drifter made his first appearance as well. Sounds like something that's very plausible and it would be nice to hear how his quest had gone.

I really disliked the end with the Drifter using the piece of wheat/willow or weed to beat the Duelist.

That was taking it to ridiculous extremes. Reminds me of Warner Brothers' more famous rabbit - you can imagine him doing that . . .

"LiamABC, post: 108371, member: 25438" said:

That was taking it to ridiculous extremes. Reminds me of Warner Brothers' more famous rabbit - you can imagine him doing that . . .

Another point worth mentioning is in Legacy. The adding of the stones to the Lion-O and Mumm-Ra's shields is basically to make it like the Infinity Gauntlet from the Marvel Universe. Another example of the show trying to be like other things.

"LiamABC, post: 108371, member: 25438" said:

That was taking it to ridiculous extremes. Reminds me of Warner Brothers' more famous rabbit - you can imagine him doing that . . .

That is hilariously accurate! :biggrin

"Mark M, post: 108412, member: 5058" said:

Another point worth mentioning is in Legacy. The adding of the stones to the Lion-O and Mumm-Ra's shields is basically to make it like the Infinity Gauntlet from the Marvel Universe. Another example of the show trying to be like other things.

Ya, I noticed that too when I first saw the episode. And I'm not that big of a Marvel fan to begin with. The stones themselves are reminiscent of the Infinity stones.

"Wilycub, post: 108466, member: 25043" said:

Ya, I noticed that too when I first saw the episode. And I'm not that big of a Marvel fan to begin with. The stones themselves are reminiscent of the Infinity stones.

Did you notice how much Mumm-Ra's armoured helmet in Legacy resembles the Shredder from the 2003 TMNT cartoon?
It would have been cool if Leo and Mumm-Ra etc wore suits of armour instead of those Mass Effect looking space suits. Thinking of Visionaries and King Arthur And The Knights Of Justice, Leo, Panthera and the various animals could have had some truly amazing armour designs.

If I ever get to re-design the Thundercats for a movie, comic or cartoon, I am going to incorporate more techno, medieval and Spartan armour into their designs!

Honestly, I think "Legacy" works for four reasons;

1. It expands the scope of this universe in a nicely detailed yet ambiguous manner.

2. The idea of making the swords of omens and plun-darr basically complete opposites was a very clever change.

3. This episode shows just how good a leader Lion-O

And

4. It actually gives us solid explanations on why Jaga can appear to Lion-O as a spirit and why Mumm-Ra wants the Eye of Thundera so badly

The idea of having the two swords linked from the beginning was good. In the original series, the Sword Of Plun-Darr was only introduced in season 3, too late to make it into a proper evil counterpart for the Sword Of Omens.

"LiamABC, post: 108726, member: 25438" said:

The idea of having the two swords linked from the beginning was good. In the original series, the Sword Of Plun-Darr was only introduced in season 3, too late to make it into a proper evil counterpart for the Sword Of Omens.

And Mumm-Ra rarely used it after its introduction, and seldom in an impressive manner. :)

"Wilycub, post: 108728, member: 25043" said:

And Mumm-Ra rarely used it after its introduction, and seldom in an impressive manner. :)

I think this was just another one of Peter Lawrence's ideas LOL. Granted it at least resembled the toy's sword...well half of it. But why they didn't have Mumm-Ra use a sword like his toy is beyond me.
In the original series, when the Mutants had the Sword of Plundarr, why did they want the Sword of Omens?
I will give the NS credit at least for explaining that the Sword of Omen was made to defeat Mumm--Ra's weapon.

"Mark M, post: 108731, member: 5058" said:

I think this was just another one of Peter Lawrence's ideas LOL. Granted it at least resembled the toy's sword...well half of it. But why they didn't have Mumm-Ra use a sword like his toy is beyond me.
In the original series, when the Mutants had the Sword of Plundarr, why did they want the Sword of Omens?
I will give the NS credit at least for explaining that the Sword of Omen was made to defeat Mumm--Ra's weapon.

That's the one major problem with the original - zero backstory. Too many unanswered questions. And when eventually some attempts were made to answer them, it didn't work, it was too late to bother and it was a different writer trying to fill in the blanks.