ThunderCats Rewatch Episode 13-14 Discussion

[CENTER]Episode 13-14: Between Brothers, New Alliances
[/CENTER]

While Lion-O and Tygra are in the Astral Plane dealing with their issues which have been magnified by the powers of Mumm-Ra who wants them to destroy each other, the other Thundercats protect the village from Slithe, Grune and the Lizard army. Lion-O and Thundercats try to convince the reptiles to join forces against Mumm-Ra and the ancient evil one is determined to stop them by adding two new generals.


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Just finished watching them.

Between Brothers - fantastic. One of the series' very best. Lion-O and Tygra in the Astral Plane, with Mumm-Ra manipulating their emotions, pitting them against each other. This exploration of the relationship between Lion-O and Tygra has been long overdue - perhaps it was saved deliberately for the climax to the first half of the season. In any event, it is very well handled.

Grune and Panthro's final battle is also nicely done, where Panthro uses Grune's own words against him. "The defeat of your enemy is worth any sacrifice." - and then he looks down at where his arms used to be, and says "worth it." That shows us just how ruthless Panthro can be. Then again, to be a general, you have to have that capability. The Spidera reference works very well here.

One thing that doesn't work for me, I remember the first time round, I allowed the whole "your brother will betray you" thing to make me wonder, but as I said last week, it struck a jarring note this time round. Tygra was far too open and honest about his rivalry with Lion-O, and understanding of the importance of the mission, for such a betrayal to be plausible. And indeed he doesn't betray him. He takes a swing at him, but he doesn't betray Lion-O or the mission. He just wins Cheetara's heart, making Lion-O insanely jealous. If anyone betrayed him in that sense, it was Cheetara, not Tygra.

New Alliances - a good solid start to the second half of the season. With Grune gone, and the second stone in the hands of the cats, the lizards have lost morale, which makes sense. They're fighting a battle they don't feel they can win, for a leader who they don't really like.

And so Mumm-Ra now recruits Addicus (Monkian) and Kaynar (Jackalman) to help lead his armies. Like most original fans, I was wondering where they were at the beginning of the series, and had got used to the idea that they weren't going to be there . . . until now! It's good that in this series they got proper names - but does anyone know why those were the names chosen? I can see Kaynar as sounding close to canine etc, jackals being dogs, but Addicus is a mystery to me. In any event, these newer versions are a lot more dangerous than their comic relief counterparts from the original series. Credit to them for that.

Panthro's new arms, well, it could be argued that we should have seen him without arms for a whole episode, but that aside, the development of their construction is again done to perfection. Of course the Berbils would naturally make Berbil arms for him at first, simply because that's what they're used to making. So equally naturally, when they make him arms that do fit, there would be a few teething problems.

And yes, now that the second stone is in the claw gauntlet, Lion-O's powers are that much stronger, which again makes sense. The kittens finally have their hover boards, made this time by the Berbils as opposed to Panthro in the originals. And the Berbils also do some more tinkering with the tank - and make it twice the vehicle it was before. Literally!

The jarring note in this episode is in the fight when it's three on three. Kaynar defeats Tygra and has Lion-O and Cheetara surrender. Cheetara does this unconditionally, without even stopping to weigh up the consequences. I know they've just got together, but come on - can't she guess that they're going to be killed anyway if they surrender? And then Tygra actually smiles to himself at her decision - rubbing Lion-O's nose in it! Once again, she's the one who's really betraying him here.

"Between Brothers" had enough action and moments and lines from characters other than Lion-O and Tygra to keep me interested. But, like the previous episode, my issue was that it seemed like they were trying give Tygra sympathy that he didn't deserve. Seriously, he's bad-mouthed and shown-up his adopted younger brother for years, he threatened to keep the Spirit Stone when they found it, made Lion-O fall into a well when they were cubs, actually considered leaving him in the well, showed no real regret when the memory was reenacted before him and his brother, actually starts attacking Lion-O (Lion-O wasn't even technically the one to start the fight, Tygra was), knocks him into the well again, considers leaving him there again and, in the end, gets exactly what he wanted; Cheetara's love. I mean really, no matter what harsh, mean-spirited thing Tygra does, all people ever seem to need from him is a simple, random, last minute act of kindness to totally forgive him and think that he's a good person. I really do feel that Tygra should get some sort of comeuppance for all of the less-than-admirable things he's done.

My opinion was pretty much the same for "New Alliances"; the story was interesting and compelling in certain areas and certain moments from certain characters most definitely got my attention. For example; i really like that, in this reboot, the Plundarrian Mutants, who were more of nuisance than threat when facing the Thundercats themselves in the Original series, have been transformed into truly lethal and competent warriors and soldiers, who, at any time, could easily overpower the Thundercats in a fight and, as shown in this episode, would only need one fight to kill three of them with relative ease. Let's face it, Panthro only beat them because he had the element of surprise with both the Thundertank and his new arms. However, the drama they used for this episode was trying too hard to make Lion-O seem like the one in wrong. What exactly did he do wrong? Was it wrong that he wasn't the type who would just enslave, imprison or even execute captured Lizard soldiers? Was it wrong for him to try and get the Lizards to come to their senses and find some (for lack of a better word) "humanity" in them by showing them the mercy that they long believed that the Cats didn't possess (and that they certainly never got from Mumm-Ra or Slithe)? Was wrong for him to feel sad that the girl he had a crush on liked someone else, even she was clearly showing signs to the contrary? Was it wrong for him to feel bad when she reveals that Jaga told her to keep an eye on him (something she could have easily just told him from the beginning)? Was wrong he couldn't turn a blind eye to people in need, enemy or not, and allow them to be imprisoned or worse just because they're Lizards and were fighting them because of years of suffering under the Cats' claws? Was wrong for him to want to keep fighting so that Third Earth still had a future? If it were a different scenario, Cheetara and Tygra would no doubt have said that Lion-O would have to learn when to sacrifice the few for the many.

So basically, Lion-O is supposed to learn that; only the lives of other Cats matter; if any other animal species has a problem with them, he should just give the order to have them all wiped out or let them just kill each other; he should never show any but other Cats mercy and that as the king, he can never find love or show any emotions at all. Honestly, if feels like the poor Lion just can't catch a break, that he's being challenged, lectured and hurt, right and left. There's adding conflict to a story to make it a lot more interesting and then there's needlessly and sadistically turning the Main Character's life into a complete downward spiral, filled with nothing but hollowed victories, hurt feelings and endless pain; both physical and emotional.

Between Brothers was a great episode I really enjoyed. I like the history of how Grune lost his tooth with Spidera. The battle between Lion-O and Tygra was odd. It was cool action wise but odd that Lion-O was fighting a completely different style compared to how he fought against the duelist. Maybe he was holding back since it was Tygra he was fighting.
The kicking Lion-O into the well scene was obviously influenced by 300. It's odd Tygra didn't shout this is SPARTA....I mean Thundera. ;)
Mumm-Ra's transformation is nowhere near as cool as the originals.

New Alliances was odd. Overall I liked it but little things about it really annoyed me.
Kanar and Adicus's voice actor casting was off and really didn't match their characters at all.
The visual direction of this episode was dull. A lot of scenes could have looked a lot more dynamic and interesting.
Again like the previous episode, we see Lion-O's combat skills cannot even match Ssslithe.
The new Thundertank design is really too much.
I think the worst bit of this episode was the predicable ending of Panthro saving the day at the last minute in the new tank. In the last episode we seen Panthro is willing to kill when he deems it necessary in battle. Yet here he is with the other Thundercats with several Berbils in a huge armoured weapon of mass destruction out numbering Ssslither, Kamar and Adicus. Yet he does not finish them there and then when this was a perfect opportunity.

Between brothers is continues this dumb Tygra vs Lion-O thing that still feels forced. Why the actual f*ck does Tygra want the stone? What does he want with it? What can he do with it? The whole thing is stupid.

If anything they should have pushed more in the fact that Tygra is supposed to be a better king and have it go that route instead of them actually not liking each other and stuff like that. They make it out so Tygra is evil and want to be king. He should just be an angry consultant and HELP Lion-O in his own stupid way and later realise.. Lion-O is not so bad after all and just stop this stupid vs thing. If they wanted this kind of conflict it should have been done using some other character, original one for this show or a known one from the first series. I want to add that i do think Grune is a decent character that turned evil. I suppose you could say that it's the astral plane that does all of this but again, still feels forced.

I´d also like to point out that i do think Lion-O could have won the battle but that he was holding back. I makes sense for Lion-O to no wanting to hurt his brother and i think his anger was more so with what Tygra thought of him more so than him going "berserk" in a sense and doing what ever he could to win. It would be nice if it was shown in a way that he had oppurtineties to win but he never took them

Aaaand we also have the best Mumm-Ra transformation thus far.

Panthro loosing his arms feels like something we should care about, but none of the other characters do and with all the happy music and stuff it just feels... weird. "You're gonna be ok, get some rest". HOW IS HE GOING TO BE OK? I know most of us by this time when the episode aired had seen the toy, BUT WHAT ABOUT THOSE WHO DID NOT? God damn this tv-show.

Also the whole thing about betrayal and it being about Tygra getting the girl? Oh for **** ****. I guess the guy who wrote that felt betrayed of a girl leaving him when she was never his to begin with.

I think this should have been a sad victory and not a super happy one. The only one that i guess we could all sad is Lion-O because he did not get any pussyCAT and Mumm-ra.

New Alliances starts of good. A nice little fight and it's nice to hear from Lion-O that there are mass dessertions from Mumm-Ras army after Lion-O found the spirit stone. Sucks that we can't see more about it, and obvioulsy they have to force, right in fron of Lion-O the Tygra Cheetara romance just so again force tension between the characters. And now, finally we get to hear about Panthro. He's apparantly in the Berbil village to get his arms fixed... Okay? It would have been nice to hear that in the episode before this to get people to wonder and talk more about it..

I really like the reveal of Addicus. His voice does not fit but the whole thing is very good. One of the best parts of the series in my opinion. Same goes for Kaynar.

The coming fight is fun to watch but what the hell happens in the end? Tygra gets captured and Lion-O think it's best to keep going. Once again they shove the "Cheetara x Tygra = Sad for Lion-O" thin in our face. She drops her weapon and says "I Have to side with him, where on he looks up and kind of.. Smiles... I can't help it but it made me laugh so much that i rewatched the scene perhaps 6 times. At this point it seems like not even the creators don't care any more.

Overall though i think the episode again was decent. LIke always there is some good stuff but it's held down by heavy and bad writing.

Agreed. It is getting ridiculous the way none of the other cats ever gives Lion-O a break. Yes, he's a youngster who's sometimes ignored his responsibilities, but he's in it now up to his neck and he knows it. They really need to cut him some slack. I mean, when Panthro was questioning him in "Old Friends", at least he'd only just met him in his new capacity as king, but episode after episode, all this negativity towards him just wears thin.

The whole "betrayed by a girl who was never his to begin with" is a good way of putting it. I mean, I've had my share of heartbreak in my time, but making that the focal point of the episode's end? They've got the Spirit Stone, they've won a major victory against the lizard army, Grune is lost in the Astral Plane - they have plenty to be happy about. Is Lion-O being a loser in love really a bigger deal than Panthro losing his arms?

I think I've finally figured out the problem with the new show. They got the concepts right, but they got the characters completely wrong.

"LiamABC, post: 110423, member: 25438" said:

Agreed. It is getting ridiculous the way none of the other cats ever gives Lion-O a break. Yes, he's a youngster who's sometimes ignored his responsibilities, but he's in it now up to his neck and he knows it. They really need to cut him some slack. I mean, when Panthro was questioning him in "Old Friends", at least he'd only just met him in his new capacity as king, but episode after episode, all this negativity towards him just wears thin.

The whole "betrayed by a girl who was never his to begin with" is a good way of putting it. I mean, I've had my share of heartbreak in my time, but making that the focal point of the episode's end? They've got the Spirit Stone, they've won a major victory against the lizard army, Grune is lost in the Astral Plane - they have plenty to be happy about. Is Lion-O being a loser in love really a bigger deal than Panthro losing his arms?

I think I've finally figured out the problem with the new show. They got the concepts right, but they got the characters completely wrong.

Yeah i think you´re right. Overall the concept for the tv series is great and i love the ideas that's been thrown around. It's just the execution that's lackluster and bad. They have no idea of how to handle characters and emotions and like I've said plenty of times.. It feels way too rushed. It's one thing if the creators had no choice and did the best they could, but it ruins the whole show and destroyed something that could have been great.

One of the biggest problems in my opinion is the problem of going forward. There is too many flashbacks and things going backwards so it feels like the main characters are not going anywhere. Sometimes even the flashbacks are more interesting than the main story itself which just should not happen.

In response to the most recent of replies here, I feel the need to reiterate:

"Between Brothers" had enough action and moments and lines from characters other than Lion-O and Tygra to keep me interested. But, like the previous episode, my issue was that it seemed like they were trying give Tygra sympathy that he didn't deserve. Seriously, he's bad-mouthed and shown-up his adopted younger brother for years, he threatened to keep the Spirit Stone when they found it, made Lion-O fall into a well when they were cubs, actually considered leaving him in the well, showed no real regret when the memory was reenacted before him and his brother, actually starts attacking Lion-O (Lion-O wasn't even technically the one to start the fight, Tygra was), knocks him into the well again, considers leaving him there again and, in the end, gets exactly what he wanted; Cheetara's love. I mean really, no matter what harsh, mean-spirited thing Tygra does, all people ever seem to need from him is a simple, random, last minute act of kindness to totally forgive him and think that he's a good person. I really do feel that Tygra should get some sort of comeuppance for all of the less-than-admirable things he's done.

My opinion was pretty much the same for "New Alliances"; the story was interesting and compelling in certain areas and certain moments from certain characters most definitely got my attention. For example; i really like that, in this reboot, the Plundarrian Mutants, who were more of nuisance than threat when facing the Thundercats themselves in the Original series, have been transformed into truly lethal and competent warriors and soldiers, who, at any time, could easily overpower the Thundercats in a fight and, as shown in this episode, would only need one fight to kill three of them with relative ease. Let's face it, Panthro only beat them because he had the element of surprise with both the Thundertank and his new arms. However, the drama they used for this episode was trying too hard to make Lion-O seem like the one in wrong. What exactly did he do wrong? Was it wrong that he wasn't the type who would just enslave, imprison or even execute captured Lizard soldiers? Was it wrong for him to try and get the Lizards to come to their senses and find some (for lack of a better word) "humanity" in them by showing them the mercy that they long believed that the Cats didn't possess (and that they certainly never got from Mumm-Ra or Slithe)? Was wrong for him to feel sad that the girl he had a crush on liked someone else, even she was clearly showing signs to the contrary? Was it wrong for him to feel bad when she reveals that Jaga told her to keep an eye on him (something she could have easily just told him from the beginning)? Was wrong he couldn't turn a blind eye to people in need, enemy or not, and allow them to be imprisoned or worse just because they're Lizards and were fighting them because of years of suffering under the Cats' claws? Was wrong for him to want to keep fighting so that Third Earth still had a future? If it were a different scenario, Cheetara and Tygra would no doubt have said that Lion-O would have to learn when to sacrifice the few for the many.

So basically, Lion-O is supposed to learn that; only the lives of other Cats matter; if any other animal species has a problem with them, he should just give the order to have them all wiped out or let them just kill each other; he should never show any but other Cats mercy and that as the king, he can never find love or show any emotions at all. Honestly, if feels like the poor Lion just can't catch a break, that he's being challenged, lectured and hurt, right and left. There's adding conflict to a story to make it a lot more interesting and then there's needlessly and sadistically turning the Main Character's life into a complete downward spiral, filled with nothing but hollowed victories, hurt feelings and endless pain; both physical and emotional.

"Rizefall, post: 110454, member: 24745" said:

Yeah i think you´re right. Overall the concept for the tv series is great and i love the ideas that's been thrown around. It's just the execution that's lackluster and bad. They have no idea of how to handle characters and emotions and like I've said plenty of times.. It feels way too rushed. It's one thing if the creators had no choice and did the best they could, but it ruins the whole show and destroyed something that could have been great.

One of the biggest problems in my opinion is the problem of going forward. There is too many flashbacks and things going backwards so it feels like the main characters are not going anywhere. Sometimes even the flashbacks are more interesting than the main story itself which just should not happen.

I agree about the flashbacks being more interesting than the main story. There was just so much going on. It's no wonder this show didn't appeal to children or many adults.

"srebak, post: 110480, member: 25156" said:

In response to the most recent of replies here, I feel the need to reiterate:

"Between Brothers" had enough action and moments and lines from characters other than Lion-O and Tygra to keep me interested. But, like the previous episode, my issue was that it seemed like they were trying give Tygra sympathy that he didn't deserve. Seriously, he's bad-mouthed and shown-up his adopted younger brother for years, he threatened to keep the Spirit Stone when they found it, made Lion-O fall into a well when they were cubs, actually considered leaving him in the well, showed no real regret when the memory was reenacted before him and his brother, actually starts attacking Lion-O (Lion-O wasn't even technically the one to start the fight, Tygra was), knocks him into the well again, considers leaving him there again and, in the end, gets exactly what he wanted; Cheetara's love. I mean really, no matter what harsh, mean-spirited thing Tygra does, all people ever seem to need from him is a simple, random, last minute act of kindness to totally forgive him and think that he's a good person. I really do feel that Tygra should get some sort of comeuppance for all of the less-than-admirable things he's done.

My opinion was pretty much the same for "New Alliances"; the story was interesting and compelling in certain areas and certain moments from certain characters most definitely got my attention. For example; i really like that, in this reboot, the Plundarrian Mutants, who were more of nuisance than threat when facing the Thundercats themselves in the Original series, have been transformed into truly lethal and competent warriors and soldiers, who, at any time, could easily overpower the Thundercats in a fight and, as shown in this episode, would only need one fight to kill three of them with relative ease. Let's face it, Panthro only beat them because he had the element of surprise with both the Thundertank and his new arms. However, the drama they used for this episode was trying too hard to make Lion-O seem like the one in wrong. What exactly did he do wrong? Was it wrong that he wasn't the type who would just enslave, imprison or even execute captured Lizard soldiers? Was it wrong for him to try and get the Lizards to come to their senses and find some (for lack of a better word) "humanity" in them by showing them the mercy that they long believed that the Cats didn't possess (and that they certainly never got from Mumm-Ra or Slithe)? Was wrong for him to feel sad that the girl he had a crush on liked someone else, even she was clearly showing signs to the contrary? Was it wrong for him to feel bad when she reveals that Jaga told her to keep an eye on him (something she could have easily just told him from the beginning)? Was wrong he couldn't turn a blind eye to people in need, enemy or not, and allow them to be imprisoned or worse just because they're Lizards and were fighting them because of years of suffering under the Cats' claws? Was wrong for him to want to keep fighting so that Third Earth still had a future? If it were a different scenario, Cheetara and Tygra would no doubt have said that Lion-O would have to learn when to sacrifice the few for the many.

So basically, Lion-O is supposed to learn that; only the lives of other Cats matter; if any other animal species has a problem with them, he should just give the order to have them all wiped out or let them just kill each other; he should never show any but other Cats mercy and that as the king, he can never find love or show any emotions at all. Honestly, if feels like the poor Lion just can't catch a break, that he's being challenged, lectured and hurt, right and left. There's adding conflict to a story to make it a lot more interesting and then there's needlessly and sadistically turning the Main Character's life into a complete downward spiral, filled with nothing but hollowed victories, hurt feelings and endless pain; both physical and emotional.

As I have always said, the characterization of Lion-O in the series really didn't help make him or the cartoon popular with children, the audience it was aimed at.