Site Relaunch - Setting our goal - 1st December

Hey gang,

We've been working on our relaunch for some time now, as far back as May and we're now making some good progress. However we're still quite far off from having a complete site together in wordpress.

The truth of the matter is that if we don't set a goal we're likely to continue on into infinity ;)

So with that in mind I've previously discussed with MannyF and Chris the idea of setting a target date. What we've landed on is that we're going to launch the site in whatever condition it is in on the 1st of December.

As this work is up to Chris, Manny and myself we're going to do what we can to move a relatively complete site over on that date. However we recognize that we likely won't have it ALL done, but that we also can't continue on any longer with the site as it is now. It is just too cumbersome for us to continue updating in html and we need to make this change sooner than later.

So we're gunning for December 1st.

Some good news on the wordpress front, I've found a guy who specializes in moving html based sites to wordpress and he's offered to give us a hand with doing that. I'll have more info on this soon but I'm hoping he'll be able to help Manny a bit with the toys section and Chris a bit with the comics section.

It's all coming together fellas! We're going to launch on December 1! Watch out internets!

Chris here...

Just to reiterate my support for this idea, I think if we don't set a goal the site relaunch will just drag on and on - so, I'm glad to think that the new look, ultimate and (hopefully) final version of the site will be launching in time for the site's 5th Anniversary! :thumbsup:

Can you believe we first started talking about this new version of the site back in 2007?! :) Back then my reservations about it were a real roadblock in moving it forward. MannyF was right and I was wrong, this update is 100% necessary to bring this website inline with modern Internet standards, and so I'm delighted to know that it will soon become a reality! :thumbsup:

Take care... :)

Chris here...

Would it be fair to say that this deadline has come and gone without event? ;) LOL!

To be honest even though I was 100% behind the idea of launching the new site on 1st December (or as soon thereafter as MannyF could manage), given how far I've fallen behind with illness and other pressures I'm actually not sorry that it's been delayed, as the new version of the site is VERY incomplete! :(

However - I am eager not to let this slip into another classic TCL scenario of something that we spend ages talking about and just never happens, and so would like to throw out to the team at large that we all suggest a launch date (even a rough launch date), and then stick to this agreed date whatever happens. So, absolutely 100% whatever state the new version of the site is in when that date hits, the new site goes online and we just keep working to the best of our ability and spare time to transfer the content "live". :)

I'd like to propose SUNDAY 6th FEBRUARY - this gives us time to get past Christmas and New Year, have a month to work on the site, and then gets the site online just before the new series stuff really starts heating up! :)

Take care... :)

Chris, I am in arush so need to be quick here. I am diametrically opposed to pushing the launch back any further. I am 100% certain that we need to convert to the new format ASAP regardless of how incomplete we look. Sorry but I want us to go ahead with this as soon as Manny can manage, and we'll build the site back up in the easier format from there.

Let's just pull the trigger now or it'll never happen.

Chris here...

"grizzlor, post: 30725" said:

Chris, I am in arush so need to be quick here. I am diametrically opposed to pushing the launch back any further. I am 100% certain that we need to convert to the new format ASAP regardless of how incomplete we look. Sorry but I want us to go ahead with this as soon as Manny can manage, and we'll build the site back up in the easier format from there.

Let's just pull the trigger now or it'll never happen.

Hey Mark, if you still want to go for it that's fair enough and I'm certainly still happy to go along with that. I agree with your concerns that this is at risk of waffling along and just never happening, and when the news starts rolling in about the new series stuff, we need to be in a position that we can jump straight on it, which the new site will enable us to do. :)

One thing I am concerned about, with no offense directed at anybody is the fact that aside from the material I've transferred, almost nothing has been done to any of the other areas, most notably the Toy Section which was going to be MannyF's responsibility. I'm definitely not attacking anybody because God knows I've done nothing whatsoever to the site for the past 2 1/2 weeks - but, my great fear is that unless I do the page building, the site is going to relaunch incomplete, and stay incomplete. Because, whilst I'm very happy to help out getting content online, I have to be honest and say there's no way I can take responsibility for moving over every single page from the current site - to be fair, nobody's asking me to, but again with no offense directed at anyone I'm beginning to question how this material is going to get moved over any other way? :(

I remember in another thread Neil saying that he'll be unhappy if the new site gets launched without the Toy Section - the harsh reality is that if Neil wants the Toy Section online when the site relaunches then the relaunch is going to have to wait. I don't want to see it get put off any longer, but am trying to be realistic.

Even though I realise I'm ruffling a few feathers I promise I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but am just calling it as I see it. I'd love to see this site continue to grow and thrive and feel passionately that this can only be achieved by relaunching the site, and relaunching it as soon as possible - however, IMO steps need to be taken to ensure that if we do launch now, the end result isn't just that 50% of our content ends up getting taken offline for good. :(

Take care... :)

I'll post something quick here, but I think February sounds like a good date.

Let's face it - traffic here won't be as strong until the new ThunderCats series and that's supposed to be coming around April or so, depending on news. I do agree with grizzlor that we should get it done very soon, though, as it seems that we might never get it done if we keep pushing it back. My schedule is maddening at the moment in terms of college work etc so I can't contribute very much besides a podcast episode or two.

Up to you guys. I'm game for whatever.

"He-Fan, post: 30731" said:

I remember in another thread Neil saying that he'll be unhappy if the new site gets launched without the Toy Section - the harsh reality is that if Neil wants the Toy Section online when the site relaunches then the relaunch is going to have to wait.

In my defense, I had always stated that I was not happy with this relaunch. Yes I know technology progresses and things move on. However this is a fan site and not an official site. We don't get paid for it. So what if it doesn't load on an iphone? Does Purssia's and Cheezey's sites?

I was also convinced that Word Press would make life easier and with a bit of input, most of the work would be done for you (similiar to Blogger) when in reality I find Dreamweaver easier because I understand that more.

The harsh reality is, it might come down to the site being split up :( (though that is also down to Mannyc too, as he owns just under half the content) I'd sooner have content up than not. I really do not see the point in relaunching until all content is converted over. No matter how long that would take.

I will say I feel a bit let down and disapointed by Manny. Not because the Toy section isn't converted, but the fact that he's never around. I'd feel better if he were here saying "Look guys, I have a lot on so can we discuss a new deadline for relaunch" or "I'm working on this, but it will take some time, so be patient" or "I took on too much so am gonna need help" etc...

Silence is what really annoys me and this is no way to lead a team. No ****ing wonder I can't be arsed to do **** all on this site! :( There just isn't any motivation from the right place (at the moment Chris is basically holding things together, which isn't fair) I actually wasted my time going to a meeting to learn WordPress, where nobody but myself, turned up so Manny didn't go through Word Press.

Sorry for the outburst gang, but it's been on my mind for some time. While things are stale as they are, I will not be wasting my time adding old content to Word Press or creating new content in Word Press.

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For what it's worth I DO NOT want to upset anyone with the above outburst (especially MannyF) Hopefully we can sort things out before Christmas and come up with a new plan :)

It was pure frustration that caused me to be so blunt :(

Well Im on Neil's side that if the toy section is not up then we should really postpone until February. My motto is that if we're going to do it we might as well do it right. Ultimately this is not for us but for or forum members and those that visit the website so we need to have the content up before doing a relaunch. Doing something incomplete will not make people happy.

Here is an idea just keep people wondering what is coming. What about giving our forum members a working preview of the website to get things going while keeping the main site alive until a full release. This will give people time to get accustomed to the new version. I know this was not the intent originally but at the very least it gives our forum members a peek on what is to come and a reason to visit the forums and discuss the new design.

Just my 2 cents but I would not be too keen on having the toy section be left out

Chris here...

"blackiecats, post: 30740" said:

In my defense, I had always stated that I was not happy with this relaunch. Yes I know technology progresses and things move on. However this is a fan site and not an official site. We don't get paid for it. So what if it doesn't load on an iphone? Does Purssia's and Cheezey's sites?

Well, there's more than one reason for this relaunch - one reason for rebuilding the site is the fact that there's a new series coming out and so we want to add a whole new section for that. The way the current site is constructed, if we wanted to add a new header to the navigation bar, i.e. this thing:



...then this would mean making a change to every page, because the way the pages are set up, the navigation is all built into every page. It's complicated to explain, but if we wanted to add a section for the new ThunderCats series, every page would have needed rebuilding anyway. :)

I was originally the biggest naysayer regarding the relaunch because I knew what a complete pain in the arse all the work would be - it's really gutty rebuilding hundreds of pages you've already spent dozens of hours building. But, believe me, whether or not you guys like the route MannyF chose to take, it is the right thing to do or I wouldn't be wasting time doing it! :)

"blackiecats, post: 30740" said:

I was also convinced that Word Press would make life easier and with a bit of input, most of the work would be done for you (similiar to Blogger) when in reality I find Dreamweaver easier because I understand that more.

To be honest I thought the same - I believe the idea was that MannyF would be building templates for all of us to use as there is a way in the WP administration that you can create template page layouts that you do then just add text and photos to - unfortunately only MannyF has access to those back end features, in fairness to him he did tell Mark some while ago that he was going to be make me an administrator so that I could access these things as well...but, I'm still waiting and in the meantime have had to get on as best as I can. :(

I get on with WordPress OK, but given how much of the work has been done by me I think ironically we'd have gotten on better if I'd rebuilt the site skeleton in HTML/CSS - I know lots of tips and tricks that would've stopped the site's navigation getting locked into each page, and the only person it would've really disadvantaged was Mark. And, it would have been able to be updated via Dreamweaver! :) However, too late to change now... :)

"blackiecats, post: 30740" said:

The harsh reality is, it might come down to the site being split up :( (though that is also down to Mannyc too, as he owns just under half the content) I'd sooner have content up than not. I really do not see the point in relaunching until all content is converted over. No matter how long that would take.

I personally would be against the idea of the site's content being split up because the whole purpose of ThunderCats Lair is to bring expert knowledge in different areas (toys, cartoon, animation art, comics, etc.) all under one umbrella. Please don't take the content anywhere else - if it comes down to the wire, I'll do MannyF's job for him and prioritise getting the toy material up over something of mine, I don't mind doing the work itself, it's simply that there's not enough hours in the day. But, I will sooner miss out on sleep than see this site's amazing Toy Section disappear for good! :)

"blackiecats, post: 30740" said:

I will say I feel a bit let down and disapointed by Manny. Not because the Toy section isn't converted, but the fact that he's never around. I'd feel better if he were here saying "Look guys, I have a lot on so can we discuss a new deadline for relaunch" or "I'm working on this, but it will take some time, so be patient" or "I took on too much so am gonna need help" etc...

Silence is what really annoys me and this is no way to lead a team. No ****ing wonder I can't be arsed to do **** all on this site! :( There just isn't any motivation from the right place (at the moment Chris is basically holding things together, which isn't fair) I actually wasted my time going to a meeting to learn WordPress, where nobody but myself, turned up so Manny didn't go through Word Press.

Well, I've never wanted to be this blunt because I really like MannyF and think he's a great guy, but...I agree. His communication with the team in recent times has been beyond poor and it is very frustrating. As you rightly say, if he hasn't got the time to devote to the site then that's fair enough because I think we all know that life gets in the way and **** happens - my problem is not that he's done none of the work he said he'd do, but the fact that there's once again NO COMMUNICATION. To be honest, it doesn't bode well for the site relaunch when the person in charge of it hasn't logged onto these forums for 5 weeks! :eek:

As it stands, Mark and (especially) me are floundering around in the dark doing the best we can. I've asked on these forums a technical question about backing up the WP site that MannyF has the direct expertise to answer and I've been waiting Christ knows how long for a reply. As you say, it is very frustrating - not the lack of work (although that is slightly frustrating, but there may well be a good reason for it), but the lack of communication. :(

"blackiecats, post: 30740" said:

Sorry for the outburst gang, but it's been on my mind for some time. While things are stale as they are, I will not be wasting my time adding old content to Word Press or creating new content in Word Press.

This makes me feel very sad, as I would have liked to have seen all of the team get behind this relaunch. As I've said above, the site did need at least some form of rebuilding, whether that be done via traditional (HTML/CSS) means or other means such as WordPress, nobody has more on their plate than me and if it was a waste of time I wouldn't be doing it. However, I do understand your frustrations and why you're finding it a negative experience - what should be a positive thing for all of us (with the site moving forwards as the new series approaches) has become a negative thing, and that makes me sad. :(

Nevertheless, Neil, I'm definitely not attacking you my friend - I think you make a lot of extremely valid comments and I think all of your thoughts and feelings have a very sound basis. I really value you & MannyC not just as team members but also as friends, and so really want you guys to stay onboard with this site - as I say, if the Toy Section is an issue, if MannyF is unable to do it I will do whatever I can to try and get that area up-and-running before the site (finally) relaunches. :)

Take care... :)

Guys sorry I was away the past few days and am once again in a rush so have to keep this short.

Let's all settle down a bit, and lets keep our eye on the ball here. There is no point delaying this conversion and with all due respect to those who would rather move across with a complete site... I just disagree with this thought and want us to take this step ASAP so that we CAN move the rest of the content across more easily and more purposefully.

And so we can especially have access to an easy to update front page again because the ThunderCats news is going to start coming through fast and furious and we need to be ready to do quick updates so that we can keep the fans updated.

I don't want to argue this point back and forth anymore. The toy section is not done yet. So what? We'll get it up one way or another.

We need to take a step forward now and despite some discomfort for a few of us this is the right step and we need to take it now. I'll accept whatever criticisms fall out of launching with an incomplete site but for me that would be better than sitting still for two more months.

Let's do this!

Chris here...

I think a more immediate concern than the Toy Section online vs. Toy Section offline debate is the fact that at the moment the addition of the Kyle's header image has completely f*cked up the layout of the site:

http://www.thundercatslair.org/relaunch

I've got to say that regardless of the debate about when we launch, I'm not prepared to see us launch until this can be fixed because it makes us look like a bunch of idiots who don't know what we're doing.

Once that can be fixed - for myself personally I don't care if we relaunch the site with some of my material offline, and do agree with you, Mark, that we need a news feed that is quick and easy to update, and that if we don't do this soon it will just fall into one of those things that waffles on and on and on (bearing in mind we've been talking about this since, what, 2007?).

Nevertheless, I do understand the concerns that Neil & MannyC have, given that we've been planning for a December relaunch for 6 months and nothing substantial has been done to the Toy Section in that time - they'd be within their rights to wonder, "If it's been 6 months leading up to this and nothing has happened, will it be 6 months into the site being relaunched before anything gets done?"

To try and get over this situation, I've temporarily abandoned work on my own sections and have begun transferring the Toy Section material over to the new site - I've only managed to do about 6 pages (albeit 6 very complex and image-intensive pages) so far but do intend to work steadily on this. If I get some help, great, if not, it'll be done eventually and hopefully if we do launch within the next week or so, there won't be any material that's offline for more than about 4 - 8 weeks (with material steadily transferring and becoming available during that time). I will be on holiday for a couple of weeks leading up to Christmas and New Year, but will get back to it in January.

Hopefully this sounds like it might keep everybody happy - could I be forgiven for saying that this is "Chris to the rescue" once again? ;)

Take care... :)
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EDIT:

Just to add, I've spoken to MannyF about the issue of the way the header graphic displays - he gave me the CSS file to have a play with and see if I can fix the problem but unfortunately I don't yet have enough experience of WordPress sites to locate the problem. I know exactly how I'd make it work in a regular website, but for WordPress it's a bit more complicated and I'm nervous of breaking something... :(

I've suggested to MannyF that he contact StudioPress (who created the WordPress theme we're using) to ask their advice, because as they're the ones who designed and created it they should be intimately familiar with how it works. God willing they should respond quite quickly, and then at least the site skeleton will be up and running! :)

Take care... :)

"grizzlor, post: 30791" said:

Guys sorry I was away the past few days and am once again in a rush so have to keep this short.

Let's all settle down a bit, and lets keep our eye on the ball here. There is no point delaying this conversion and with all due respect to those who would rather move across with a complete site... I just disagree with this thought and want us to take this step ASAP so that we CAN move the rest of the content across more easily and more purposefully.

And so we can especially have access to an easy to update front page again because the ThunderCats news is going to start coming through fast and furious and we need to be ready to do quick updates so that we can keep the fans updated.

I don't want to argue this point back and forth anymore. The toy section is not done yet. So what? We'll get it up one way or another.

We need to take a step forward now and despite some discomfort for a few of us this is the right step and we need to take it now. I'll accept whatever criticisms fall out of launching with an incomplete site but for me that would be better than sitting still for two more months.

Let's do this!

Mark is not about accepting whatever criticisms its about doing it right. If your attitude towards one of the most important sections of the website is a "So what" in your book then by all means release the new site incomplete.

I'm done, I'm through you can take whatever toy info or questions or whatever the hell other contacts you have and roll with it.

Neil...this is now in your reign. I dont care one damn about whatever content I put up on the site.

Thanks Mark for making Neil's work and mine seem like it is nothing...Take Care and have fun in whatever you do

You've completely misunderstood me Manny. I wasn't trying to minimize the value of the toy section. I'm emphasizing the fact that this site needs to get its upgrade now whether or not we move all our content over. My animation art section isn't done either and I still think we should upgrade now. It has nothing to do with my perceived value of any one section.

I hope you don't leave, and I like you and your work here very much.

But if you are going to leave the site over such a trivial misunderstanding then something tells me you weren't that serious about staying anyway.

If you'd like to talk with me about this I'm more than happy. If you change your mind and decide to stick around I'll be more than happy.

Chris here...

I must confess when I read Mark's post using the term "So what?" I was waiting for this reaction from either Neil or MannyC. On first reading it does come over very flippantly and disrespectfully, but I don't think Mark meant it that way.

As I said above, I think Neil & MannyC are right to be concerned about the Toy Section having not been transferred, because until I started work on it a few days ago it's been 5 - 6 months with absolutely nothing done to it, and as I say, they would be within their rights to question whether or not anything would EVER be done to it.

That said, I am now working on it and am about to start a status update thread showing what I'm working on.

MannyC, I'd urge you not to leave the site - as I say, right now I'm working on transferring the Toy Section material and I will need yours, Neil's and Matt's guidance as I transfer this stuff over. :) More importantly than this, you were one of the architects of this site - and, more importantly even than that, I regard you as a great friend and I'd be sad not to see you posting on these forums. :(

I'll talk more about the Toy Section in the thread I'm about to start...I'll edit a link into this post once the thread's created. :)

Take care... :)

"grizzlor, post: 30808" said:

You've completely misunderstood me Manny. I wasn't trying to minimize the value of the toy section. I'm emphasizing the fact that this site needs to get its upgrade now whether or not we move all our content over. My animation art section isn't done either and I still think we should upgrade now. It has nothing to do with my perceived value of any one section.

I hope you don't leave, and I like you and your work here very much.

But if you are going to leave the site over such a trivial misunderstanding then something tells me you weren't that serious about staying anyway.

If you'd like to talk with me about this I'm more than happy. If you change your mind and decide to stick around I'll be more than happy.

Mark your words where "so what if the toy section is not done yet" that in itself is putting down the work that we did as insignificant. It is not important enough to warrant waiting a few months until it gets ported over.

This may be a trivial matter to you but to others who have put in hard work your words are taken as an insult. Im already stating that I will not accept a decision of the site moving forward without the toy section and there is a consensus already that this is not the best choice. If the site moves forward without the toy section then so be it, but be prepared to have less people visit our site because of the lack of content.

You want to make us look amateurish by porting over an almost bare website then by all means, but dont expect me though to stick around while there is no toy section on the site. In addition, I will not continue with my plans on putting together any interview or gathering any more info.

So it is either wait for the toy section to be mostly completed prior to the launch or I will step back completely until it is done.

As much as I too would have loved to move a full site across, that just wasn't possible. It's not realistic to expect that we'll get there any time soon either. So yes I was being provocative in saying "So what?" But I was also clear that upgrading the site will be a positive step forward, and will make it easier for us to get back to a complete site.

We CANNOT move a complete site over now or in the very near future. Unless we have more hands on deck this is going to be the best site we can be for now. I'm okay with that, it's better than presiding over a site that stays still.

So I say... So what? Let's pull the trigger, lets take this step into the new web era. Let's do it bravely and then work on filling in our sections. We can't expect Chris to do it for us, we all need to find the time now and get our areas going again.

But there's no point getting steamed about our situation, we've overcome bigger tiffs than this and each time it made us stronger. I'm on skype if anyone wants to talk further.
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Manny, I'd like you to check your temperature on this mate and have a good long think about how long we've been trying to get this relaunch sorted.

You've not been able to contribute to the relaunch project and neither has Neil. You were upfront about it and we tried to make other plans which didn't work out. But you guys own that section, so ultimately if you couldn't get it ready its on you.

If we're in an amateurish state as you put it because nothing was done on YOUR section excuse me but that is not anybody's fault other than your own. Goals were set, plans were made and here we are... an unfinished section (one of mine is unfinished too btw, life is busy for us all mate)

So your ultimatum strikes me as unfair don't you think? You weren't able to help yet you want to hold the entire relaunch up now under threat of you walking away. You've misread me completely and you feel I've treated your hard work of the past lightly. I don't. I recognize that the toy section is a big part of what makes this site great.

But its not enough to rest on our laurels, and an amateurish site is one that never gets updated. Its one that continues to live on in html format while the rest of the internet world moves on to new technology.

What I want is for us to get this relaunch done and then have everyone work to put a plan together to get undone sections of the site moved over as soon as you can so we don't lose traffic. I'm hoping that pressure would help us as a team overall get back on our game here.

Our site has always been incomplete. Look at how the merchandise section didn't get worked on for years, the site map never went up etc.

Now I've said my piece too. I'd like to put this to a vote. I see three options:

1) Wait for a virtually complete site to be ready and only then switch over
2) Wait till first week of Feb and move whatever we've got done over at that point (Chris' suggestion in this thread)
3) Move the site as soon as MannyF is able to and then backfill the incomplete sections

I'd like everyone to vote and whichever choice comes up most often is what we'll do and we should all support that.

Geez mark did you not read my previous posts. I said that I agree on a postponement until February, this is provided that the toy section is in some shape available to people. It may not be fully complete and I dont expect it to so it will have to be ported over as complete as possible.

I would suggest you read over the countless posts where Manny stated he would port over the toy section so dont go and play the blame game saying that its our fault when in reality someone else offered their services to complete that part of the site.

Chris has already offered to help with the toy section so we'll leave it at that.

Ask yourself this...Why such a huge worry on porting an almost incomplete site over. It totally defeats the purpose...its like baking a pie with no filling. If porting it over has to do with this new technology at the expense of having a skeleton site then that is no reason.

I feel now that the site has been compromised...it is starting to feel as if having this new Wordpress system is more important than having a complete site.

At this point I really dont care what happens to the toy section, Im indifferent to anything that happens to it...if it is complete then great and if 20 pages go up then hey at least we have this grandiose Wordpress site to show off.

Chris here...

Obviously I'm going to vote for the February option - strikes a compromise between both points of view. At my current rate I would anticipate having about 75% of the Toy Section transferred by that time...I'm getting on well with it at the moment. :)

MannyC - I hope you got my PM. I'm plugged in to making the Toy Section an active and vibrant part of the new TCL, I want you guys to guide me in that work and want to work for you and with you to make it happen! :)

Take care... :)

"He-Fan, post: 30815" said:

Chris here...

Obviously I'm going to vote for the February option - strikes a compromise between both points of view. At my current rate I would anticipate having about 75% of the Toy Section transferred by that time...I'm getting on well with it at the moment. :)

MannyC - I hope you got my PM. I'm plugged in to making the Toy Section an active and vibrant part of the new TCL, I want you guys to guide me in that work and want to work for you and with you to make it happen! :)

Take care... :)

:thumbsup: 75% is good for me. I cant speak for Neil but I think he would agree with your suggestion

It is not fair, not sustainable and not right that we expect Chris to be a one man site master. I'm sorry but this is the wrong answer.

As much as I respect you Manny, I'd respect your opinion on this topic a lot more if you'd find a way to manage the content of your section again. Wordpress gives you and everybody else the chance to do that. That's why we need this upgrade. That's why we need the pie crust first. Because you're asking Chris to bake your pie for you, and he's done enough baking. His hands hurt, his custard is going to turn sour... okay I'm taking the pie analogy too far.

That's the whole point of doing this Manny, so we can update our site more easily, but because we're no longer updating the old site, our damn pie is going stale and we're in danger of nobody wanting to eat it when all the new yummy ingredients come out soon, and our stale pie will dissuade fans of pie from coming to us to eat. (continuing to take the analogy past any reasonable degree)

I think your suggestion that we sit back and see what Chris can do to get the toy section up to your satisfaction is unfair. We've already leaned on his kindness too heavily this past months.