ROCKS 7A: Star Wars Clone Wars

WELCOME EVERYBODY TO THE FIRST DISCUSSION IN THE SEVENTH STRAND OF THE NEW CLUB "R.O.C.K.S." - REWATCHING OLD CLASSIC KIDS SHOWS!
A big thanks to everyone that are joining us through all of this.

Threads 7A through 7C will be doing a tie-in with Movie Club. Because we're doing the original Star Wars trilogy, and had talked about doing related cartoons, we figured we might as well combine them. So for each week we're watching a different cartoon adventure.

This week, we're watching the Clone Wars cartoon from about 15yrs ago. Apparently the whole thing is only 2hrs so we might as well cover it all here.

Just the usual friendly reminder to everyone that, whilst fans are obviously welcome to passionately discuss and give their views on these episodes, please remember to keep things on a friendly footing and respect your fellow posters.
Also, please do not post where or how to find the full episode online. And do not post asking others to PM it to you. You are however allowed to watch the show in whatever manner you want.

I recall when I first heard of the Clone Wars cartoon. I read about it in an issue of Model and Collectors Mart.
Being a fan of the Ewoks cartoon and liking what I had seen of the Droids cartoon, the idea of another Star Wars cartoon that would have Jedis set during the Clone Wars was really exciting. The only problem being that it was to be broadcast on Cartoon Network a channel I didn't get so I didn't think or too much about it. I also found the idea of each episode only being a few minutes long really strange and annoying.

Around late April or early May in 2005 I was looking to see what was on one Sunday morning and too my surprise an Irish channel RTE 2 was showing Clone Wars. Needless to say I I made sure to watch it the next couple weeks. The showed the whole series in four parts.

I was familiar with Genedy Tartakovsky's other work Power Puff Girls, Dexter's Laboratory and Samurai Jack. Ironically I seen them when we used to have Cartoon Network as a free channel lol.

I was quite cautious as to how Star Wars would look in his animation style. But overall I think design wise it works really well and the action is great.
The story telling, character building works great and is a nice lead into the Revenge Of The Sith movie.

The Clone Troopers, Obi-Wan's fight with Durge, Anakin's duel with Aasaj Ventis, Mace Windu fighting the droid army and Anakin's quest were my favourite parts but there was lots of scenes to like.

This really helped inspire the 2008 Clone Wars movie and TV series which overall I would have to say is superior.

Overall I really love this series.

This is my first time watching this cartoon. I actually never even knew this existed. I always thought that "Clone Wars" TV series meant the CGI one. It's kinda confusing that both TV series have the same name!!! :confused I'll jump right into my views of the show:

Firstly, I was a bit taken aback by the animation and overall look of the show. I am familiar with Tartakovsky's work thanks to having seen plenty of "Dexter's Laboratory" episodes. I was initially very skeptical about this style/design. But as I watched the episodes, I got more engrossed in the stories and the look of the characters didn't bother me too much and I warmed up a bit to the art style. Even after watching the entire series I can't say that I have become a fan of this style. It works quite well in the action sequences but not so much in the more "quieter" scenes. The look of the characters are a bit too cartoony for my taste. I think something along the lines of "Batman: The Animated Series" might have worked brilliantly. But that's just me. :)

The voice casting is very good. Many of the characters (Obi-Wan, Count Dooku, Mace Windu) sound very close to their live-action movie actors. I was surprised that only Anthony Daniels is the one reprising his role as C3PO and everybody else is a voice actor and not the original actor.

I enjoyed hearing some of the themes form the prequel movies used here. My favorites are always "Duel of Fates" and "Across the Stars".

The series starts of well with action, but the battles go on for a bit too long in my opinion. The first half an hour is almost non-stop battle after battle. But after that, the story got very interesting. Count Dooku choosing Ventress, the fight between Anakin and Ventress and signs of Anakin's "evil side", General Grievous, Anakin's knighting, are all very well done. General Grievous especially was very well done here compared to the movie version. :thumbsup

I'm actually very curious to see what Liam thinks of this show as he has not seen the original trilogy or the prequels trilogy. I have tried not to spoil anything for Liam by comparing this too much to the movies. :) Can someone who is not familiar with Star Wars follow this show?

All in all, I must say I enjoyed the show very much, despite my reservations about the art style. I'm actually surprised why Lucas didn't use elements from this show for the prequels? There is so much good material in this show that could have done wonders for the prequels. Many of the characters in this show are so well done and we learn quite a bit about them compared to the movie. Anakin especially.

"Wilycub, post: 120929, member: 25043" said:

All in all, I must say I enjoyed the show very much, despite my reservations about the art style. I'm actually surprised why Lucas didn't use elements from this show for the prequels? There is so much good material in this show that could have done wonders for the prequels. Many of the characters in this show are so well done and we learn quite a bit about them compared to the movie. Anakin especially.

I have always said that the stories from Clone Wars 2003 and 2008 would have made far more interesting movies compared to what was shown in the prequels.
Did we need a whole movie about Anakin being found on Tatooine? No. He leaving to go the temple could have been done in a 30 second flash back.
There are definitely some great and interesting scenes in episodes 1 and 2 but I always felt we missed out on the best parts of the Clone Wars.
Instead of Anakin being found etc I would rather have actually scene more of Qui Gon and Obi-Wan training Anakin.
Same with actually seeing more of Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship as Jedi Knights and Anakin the greatest Starfighter pilot in the galaxy and cunning warrior that Obi-Wan described in A New Hope. Thankfully Clone Wars 2003 and 2008 really filled in a lot of those gaps.

Did you know Ventriss was the original character that was designed to be the villain in The Phantom Menace instead of Maul. I liked Maul but in the movies he was a bit boring character wise. Character and visual wise I think Ventriss would have been a lot more interesting.
Thankfully Clone Wars 2008 lets Ventriss and Maul be far more interesting characters.

"Mark M, post: 120931, member: 5058" said:

I have always said that the stories from Clone Wars 2003 and 2008 would have made far more interesting movies compared to what was shown in the prequels.
Did we need a whole movie about Anakin being found on Tatooine? No. He leaving to go the temple could have been done in a 30 second flash back.
There are definitely some great and interesting scenes in episodes 1 and 2 but I always felt we missed out on the best parts of the Clone Wars.
Instead of Anakin being found etc I would rather have actually scene more of Qui Gon and Obi-Wan training Anakin.
Same with actually seeing more of Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship as Jedi Knights and Anakin the greatest Starfighter pilot in the galaxy and cunning warrior that Obi-Wan described in A New Hope. Thankfully Clone Wars 2003 and 2008 really filled in a lot of those gaps.

Exactly! From the time I first saw the prequels, I really felt that there were so many great things that were omitted and so much unnecessary explanations added. Like you said, Anakin's training was something crucial that was left out. Also the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin was also not well done. For most of the prequels they are always on separate missions in different corners of the galaxy. We never get to see their friendship blossom.

That is why I really liked the scene of Anakin's fight with Ventriss where we see shades of evil in him as well as Anakin's anointment into the Jedi order and how they cut off his hair braid to signify that he is no longer a padawan. None of this is shown in the movie so it just looks like a weird hairstyle.

"Mark M, post: 120931, member: 5058" said:

Did you know Ventriss was the original character that was designed to be the villain in The Phantom Menace instead of Maul. I liked Maul but in the movies he was a bit boring character wise. Character and visual wise I think Ventriss would have been a lot more interesting.
Thankfully Clone Wars 2008 lets Ventriss and Maul be far more interesting characters.

I did not now that. Ventriss would have made a great addition to TPM. I think the problem with Darth Maul was that the writers did not flesh out his character as well as Ventriss' was in the series. If they had then he to would have been a good villain. Same with General Grievous and Count Dooku. The series got them right, the movies not so much. We needed to see more of their backstory. Lucas just abruptly introduced characters and shortly would kill them off.

"Wilycub, post: 120939, member: 25043" said:

Exactly! From the time I first saw the prequels, I really felt that there were so many great things that were omitted and so much unnecessary explanations added. Like you said, Anakin's training was something crucial that was left out. Also the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin was also not well done. For most of the prequels they are always on separate missions in different corners of the galaxy. We never get to see their friendship blossom.

That is why I really liked the scene of Anakin's fight with Ventriss where we see shades of evil in him as well as Anakin's anointment into the Jedi order and how they cut off his hair braid to signify that he is no longer a padawan. None of this is shown in the movie so it just looks like a weird hairstyle.

During his spirit quest in the cave when he has the vision looking at the tribal markings I thought it was really cool how the markings merged into a Darth Vader looking face.
It would have been cool if in episodes 1 and 2 we had seen Kenobi and Anakin sparring and practicing their lightsaber skills. It would have made their final duel on Mustafaar in episode 3 even more epic. Regardless of my opinions on the prequels the final duel was a real masterpiece and McGregor and Christensen did an amazing job. I still remember the excitement I had at the cinema watching their lightsaber battle.

I would have loved to have seen a lot more of the lightsaber training and construction scenes in the movies. Seeing it done in the cave in the Clone Wars cartoon was really interesting. There was a deleted scene from Return of the Jedi of Luke constructing his new lightsaber.
I have read various Star Wars novels and in the novel of Revenge of the Sith their is a lot of detaisl explained about the 6 or 7 different forms of lightsaber battle. Obi-Wan was a master form 3 and was considered by many to be the true master of it. It is a style mostly suited to blocking an enemies attack that allows you to tire them out and wait for an opening to strike. This is why he was selected to go after Grievous as he could block Grievous' multiple arm attack style.
Anakin was very proficient in form 5, a style that is all about attacking and strength. In the book they described the style as each blow a step and each step a blow forcing the opponent back etc.
Dooku was a master of form 2 a style suited to one on one duelling.
In the book it explains that to combat Dooku's amazing skill they master their chosen form and also learn parts of other forms to confuse him in battle.

"Wilycub, post: 120939, member: 25043" said:

I did not now that. Ventriss would have made a great addition to TPM. I think the problem with Darth Maul was that the writers did not flesh out his character as well as Ventriss' was in the series. If they had then he to would have been a good villain. Same with General Grievous and Count Dooku. The series got them right, the movies not so much. We needed to see more of their backstory. Lucas just abruptly introduced characters and shortly would kill them off.

That's what bothered me quite a bit about the prequels. The villains were not consistent. Maul in the first movie who is very boring and characterless. Then we get Jango and Dooku who were both pretty interesting and in the latter's case an excellent casting decision. Then in episode three we had another villain with Grievous.
They should have had the villains in all three prequel movies which would have really helped build their character.

Speaking of Grievous I liked how this Clone Wars cartoon explained the way he speaks and his coughing in the movie. During the battle on Courscant mace crushed and damaged his lungs. Just in case you didn't know Grievous isn't a droid. He used to be an alien but like Darth Vader he was fitted with a lot of cybernetic parts.

"Wilycub, post: 120929, member: 25043" said:

All in all, I must say I enjoyed the show very much, despite my reservations about the art style.

I am glad you liked it Wilycub.

Before I say anything else, Wilycub, you are mistaken above, I have seen all the Star Wars movies, episodes 1-7 and Rogue One. Although I'll admit it's been a while in most cases! I think you're just a little bit shocked at some of the things I haven't seen before (or hadn't prior to seeing them on here), that you're mentally adding other things to the list!

Anyhow, Clone Wars here, I had not seen before. Having now seen it, I can share my thoughts.

Firstly, yes, the animation was not right for it, it did feel too juvenile, and is better suited to something comedic. That said, they did get a good look for some of the characters. Obi-Wan Kenobi in particular has a look that is evocative of both Ewan McGregor and Alec Guinness, so that has to be applauded.

Secondly, the way in which the first half was originally presented - little 3min segments containing lots of action but no sense of story - wasn't a good idea. I was wondering what was actually going on a lot of the time.

But on the positive side, yes, there were elements of this that would have worked better in the prequels than what we did get there. Anakin's journey from a Padawan to a full Jedi Knight in particular. We didn't see that much development of his character in the films, episode 1 had the excuse of him being just a child, but episode 2 had no defence. Episode 3, obviously was when he turned bad, but that was too little too late. I liked his dream vision prophesying his eventual transformation into Darth Vader, and destroying all he loved.

In a nutshell, with a few tweaks, this would have made a much better episode 2.

"LiamABC, post: 120951, member: 25438" said:

Before I say anything else, Wilycub, you are mistaken above, I have seen all the Star Wars movies, episodes 1-7 and Rogue One. Although I'll admit it's been a while in most cases! I think you're just a little bit shocked at some of the things I haven't seen before (or hadn't prior to seeing them on here), that you're mentally adding other things to the list!

Sorry. My bad.

"LiamABC, post: 120951, member: 25438" said:

In a nutshell, with a few tweaks, this would have made a much better episode 2.

I actually do like Episode 2 but yes a lot of Clone Wars would have made a better Episode 2.