Let's sort out a continuity order for season 1

"keaton, post: 87399" said:

So can the remaining 30-ish be in any order?

We're still working on the best possible order for the remaining episodes.

There are some episodes that don't have many continuity points and could theoretically be placed anywhere.

Then there are what I shall call CLIPs - Continuity Loops of Infinite Paradox.

These are pairs or groups of episodes that if you follow all the continuity points within them, form a circle of

A goes before B goes before C goes before A

Sadly these do exist in Thundercats.

If it's a story point versus an animation detail, I'd be inclined to say the story point wins, because cartoons have animation errors all the time, so the animation detail can be dismissed as that.

I think "Fond Memories" should be the last one with "Eye of the Beholder" about 5 episodes before that.

"Lady Ocelli, post: 87455" said:

I think "Fond Memories" should be the last one with "Eye of the Beholder" about 5 episodes before that.

Well, there's certainly no doubt that "Fond Memories" is the last one, it's the last episode in every order you care to name, and the nature of the episode means it kind of has to be last.

As for "Eye Of The Beholder", do you have a reason for pushing it forwards to about 60? Or any episodes that you can definitely say belong after it? I ask this because again, the nature of the episode should make it perfect as episode 64.

I just reviewed Secret of the Ice King, Good and Ugly, The Transfer.

SotIK: Lion-O and Snarf both act familiar with Snow Knight (not Snowman anymore?) and Snow-Meow, however Tygra and Panthro do not appear to recgnize the large cat coming toward them. I'm pretty sure this makes a continuity paradox unless there is some episode in which only Lion-O and Snarf meet Snow Man/Knight and Snow-Meow.

In The Transfer the Mutants and Mumm-Ra begin fighting among themselves (and eventually defeat themselves). Jackleman in particular shows early signs of wanting to splinter from the Mutants, and is especially embarrassed when being singled out by Mumm-Ra for retribution. This episode could lead directly into Jackleman's Rebellion. Alternatively, if could be after Jackleman's Rebellion to show that he never gives up on his lust for power.

The other thing I noticed is that the Chimera's ship in Good and Ugly looks suspiciously like the supposedly unmanned ship in The Transfer. I can't find screen shots to compare and I'm too lazy to make them, so you'll have to dig out your dvds to be the final judge on that.

"Saint Doyle, post: 87552" said:

I just reviewed Secret of the Ice King, Good and Ugly, The Transfer.

SotIK: Lion-O and Snarf both act familiar with Snow Knight (not Snowman anymore?) and Snow-Meow, however Tygra and Panthro do not appear to recgnize the large cat coming toward them. I'm pretty sure this makes a continuity paradox unless there is some episode in which only Lion-O and Snarf meet Snow Man/Knight and Snow-Meow.

In The Transfer the Mutants and Mumm-Ra begin fighting among themselves (and eventually defeat themselves). Jackleman in particular shows early signs of wanting to splinter from the Mutants, and is especially embarrassed when being singled out by Mumm-Ra for retribution. This episode could lead directly into Jackleman's Rebellion. Alternatively, if could be after Jackleman's Rebellion to show that he never gives up on his lust for power.

The other thing I noticed is that the Chimera's ship in Good and Ugly looks suspiciously like the supposedly unmanned ship in The Transfer. I can't find screen shots to compare and I'm too lazy to make them, so you'll have to dig out your dvds to be the final judge on that.

Thanks for the research here - I think in "Secret Of The Ice King", it's just a case of Tygra and Panthro just don't recognise Snowmeow at first because he's too far away. The Snowman and Snowmeow are introduced in "Lord Of The Snows", and all the Thundercats meet them in that episode.

The spaceships in "The Transfer" and "Good And Ugly" may well be similar, so too is the one in "Sixth Sense" - I think that's just the animators being too lazy to come up with a different design. For the same reason, the Rock Giant is the same in "Feliner" and "The Rock Giant" - albeit a different size. In "Feliner" it's a bit smaller.


As for Jackalman's attitudes in "The Transfer" relating to "Jackalman's Rebellion" - that's certainly the most interesting point here. The key question here is, what is the incident that tips him over the edge into going it alone? Certainly the thought of it being a humiliation would work - I suggested "The Rock Giant" earlier for the same reason - the other point here is:

In "The Transfer", Jackalman's betrayal seems more spontaneous, in "Jackalman's Rebellion" it was pre-meditated. I'm not sure it's quite the trigger factor, but I'll certainly go along with it coming before, because if it came after, I'm not sure Slithe would put so much faith in Jackalman to retrieve the power unit.

This adds another episode to the list of those that must come after "The Transfer", which I think we can safely say is now quite an early episode out of those to feature the Feliner. It certainly comes before "Mumm-Rana", and it would make sense to have it immediately followed by "The Micrits" (because of the Flying Machine debacle).

"LiamABC, post: 87571" said:

Thanks for the research here - I think in "Secret Of The Ice King", it's just a case of Tygra and Panthro just don't recognise Snowmeow at first because he's too far away. The Snowman and Snowmeow are introduced in "Lord Of The Snows", and all the Thundercats meet them in that episode.

I agree. I think they don't recognise Snowmeow at first but then one of tehm (or either Cheetara), says "it's Snowmeow", thus they knew they had to head to Hook Mountain. But I'm not 100% sure.

"Tygra_Rules, post: 87572" said:

I agree. I think they don't recognise Snowmeow at first but then one of tehm (or either Cheetara), says "it's Snowmeow", thus they knew they had to head to Hook Mountain. But I'm not 100% sure.

Sounds right to me, I think it is Cheetara who identifies the cat, then they see the Sword of Omens in his hand and figure out easily enough that they have to follow. As far as I can tell, there's no continuity points in this episode that aren't already taken care of by the earlier episodes that are already in place. Meaning it should probably be kept for a point when we need an episode devoid of the regular villains.

Last time I watched the show, I discovered a CLIP (Continuity Loop of Infinite Paradox), concerning the Annointment Trial and Feliner:

In Lion-O's coronation scene, Snarfer is seen in the crowd with Snarf, implying the 5-parter follows the 2-parter, HOWEVER

If Annointment follows Feliner, why are the Mutants not using any of the new technology from the Rat Star?

I'd say the technology point should override the animation detail, so Feliner comes after Annointment.

"LiamABC, post: 91405" said:

Last time I watched the show, I discovered a CLIP (Continuity Loop of Infinite Paradox), concerning the Annointment Trial and Feliner:

In Lion-O's coronation scene, Snarfer is seen in the crowd with Snarf, implying the 5-parter follows the 2-parter, HOWEVER

If Annointment follows Feliner, why are the Mutants not using any of the new technology from the Rat Star?

I'd say the technology point should override the animation detail, so Feliner comes after Annointment.

The technology point is more of an inference, though. If we could place an episode before the Trials that explains the absence of that weaponry (as well as Vultureman's absence), "Mumm-Rana" or "Tight Squeeze" for instance, then Snarfer's presence at the coronation could be rationalized. I really ought to go back in the thread to see whether we've already placed those episodes for this purpose already—this discussion's been dormant long enough that I've forgotten a fair amount of our decision-making up to this point.

Continuity details aside, though, I must admit that the Trials feel like they precede "Feliner". :)

"thezaxfactor, post: 91460" said:

The technology point is more of an inference, though. If we could place an episode before the Trials that explains the absence of that weaponry (as well as Vultureman's absence), "Mumm-Rana" or "Tight Squeeze" for instance, then Snarfer's presence at the coronation could be rationalized. I really ought to go back in the thread to see whether we've already placed those episodes for this purpose already—this discussion's been dormant long enough that I've forgotten a fair amount of our decision-making up to this point.

Continuity details aside, though, I must admit that the Trials feel like they precede "Feliner". :)

Zax, you've just come up with an excellent answer! "Tight Squeeze" would probably be the better option, it certainly comes after "Feliner", and if we can justify it coming before the Trials, it would be a good explanation, as long as there's nothing between it and them that does feature Vultureman.

I'm trying to think though, I've got a horrible feeling there's some other continuity point we've brought up before that places the Trials before "Feliner".

OK, I've just had a quick flick through the previous pages, and there's nothing mentioned that marks the Trials as necessarily coming before "Feliner". Perhaps then, we should have "Feliner" around the mid-point and move the trials to 36-40, even 41-45.

"LiamABC, post: 91466" said:

I'm trying to think though, I've got a horrible feeling there's some other continuity point we've brought up before that places the Trials before "Feliner".

There is. We determined that "Return of the Driller" must come after the Trials (because of the introduction of Acid Lake and the Whirlpool of Infinity), but before "Feliner" (because it would have been faster for them to fly to the Sponge Fog). Whoops.

Nevertheless, "Tight Squeeze" should serve an important role in Vultureman's continuity arc. Really, it ought to be his final appearance of the season. He abandons Castle PlunDarr, only to reappear alongside Rataro in the rebuilt Rat-Star in "ThunderCats Ho!" It's not possible, though, since he reappears in "Eye of the Beholder" with a new veri-cannon.

ETA: We placed "Return of the Driller", along with many other episodes, before "Feliner" because we're making the assumption that the Feliner would have been the favorable vehicle to use. Why are we making this assumption when, in "ThunderCats Ho!" they don't bother to use it? Could we come up with a reason for the Feliner being out of commission?

For instance, the damage the Feliner suffers in "Trapped" seems pretty severe. That could knock it out for a long while, and the amount of work required to repair it might be what prompts Panthro to start work on a set of smaller vehicles. We don't see the Feliner operational again until, when, "The Mad Bubbler"? That's a long time.

This frees us up a few other episodes, also, namely "Sixth Sense" and "Turmagar the Tuska", to be put wherever we want. "Mandora and the Pirates" (and "Dr. Dometone" by extension) should still come before "Feliner", since Lion-O does say they have no intergalactic vehicles, as opposed to no operational ones.

This is all in service of moving the Trials much further forward so that Snarfer can be at the coronation, which despite the animation quirks of that scene is a worthy point of continuity. Here's a new rough order, comprising everything so far. Much of it is rearrangeable, I'm sure:

Exodus – Snarf Takes Up the Challenge (as we've established)

Mandora and the Pirates
The Wolfrat (establishes Vultureman's independence)
Dr. Dometone (references Mandora)
The Rock Giant (plants seed for Jackalman's arc)
Out of Sight (sets up Super-Power Potion)
Queen of Eight Legs
Super-Power Potion (this punctuates Vultureman's arc prior to teaming up with Rataro)

FELINER

Sword in a Hole (putting the shiny new Feliner to good use)
Trouble with ThunderKittens
The Transfer (Flying Machine crashes, foreshadows Jackalman's rebellion)
Mumm-Rana (Rat-Star repaired, only to crash again. Vultureman missing—maybe he's fixing his Flying Machine.)
Jackalman's Rebellion (Flying Machine wing destroyed by veri-cannon, NoseDiver crashes)
Good and Ugly (Gives the Mutants time to repair things)
The Shifter (Flying Machine crashes again! Poor Vultureman.)
Micrits (Vultureman in a SkyCutter)
Evil Harp of Charr-Ninn
The Astral Prison (Mumm-Ra's back, thundranium cannon and Vultureman pretty beat up in the end)
The Mountain (features thundranium shells, but no cannon and no Vultureman)
Excalibur (flashback to the Astral Prison)
Tight Squeeze (Thundranium cannon #2 busted, Vultureman leaves, and most Mutant tech destroyed)

*Some Mutantless episodes*

ANOINTMENT TRIALS (Skycutters and Nosediver operational again, Vultureman still missing)

The Mumm-Ra Berbil (Mumm-Ra's post-Anointment reveal)
Trapped (Feliner out of commission, Vultureman is back)
Return of the Driller (they can't take the Feliner, and they're beginning to innovate with the superfuel)
Divide and Conquer (the monitoring equipment introduced in "Trapped" enables the voice imitator)
Turmagar the Tuska
Mechanical Plague
Eye of the Beholder
Fond Memories

Really, the biggest problem we face is the shear number of times the Mutants' superweapons get wrecked. The Mutants need time to repair them, and without Vultureman around post-"Tight Squeeze" that would take a while. The following episodes still need to be placed, and can really go pretty much anywhere. All of them except for "Sixth Sense" can be used for padding to solve this problem:

Mongor
Crystal Queen
Sixth Sense (features all the Superweapons, including the Flying Machine)
Dimension Doom (Slithe on his own, no tech)
Demolisher (features a flashback to "The Rock Giant")
Secret of the Ice King
Monkian's Bargain (Monkian considers Snarf worth capturing, so post "Snarf Takes Up the Challenge")
Dream Master

What say all of you? :)

"thezaxfactor, post: 91467" said:

There is. We determined that "Return of the Driller" must come after the Trials (because of the introduction of Acid Lake and the Whirlpool of Infinity), but before "Feliner" (because it would have been faster for them to fly to the Sponge Fog). Whoops.

Nevertheless, "Tight Squeeze" should serve an important role in Vultureman's continuity arc. Really, it ought to be his final appearance of the season. He abandons Castle PlunDarr, only to reappear alongside Rataro in the rebuilt Rat-Star in "ThunderCats Ho!" It's not possible, though, since he reappears in "Eye of the Beholder" with a new veri-cannon.

What say all of you? :)

Interesting points indeed. I remember "Return Of The Driller" just after I went offline - your suggestions might well work. I'll take a more detailed look at them when I have a minute. The point about the Mutant tech being wrecked is also very well made - I think I said something to that effect myself about putting "Micrits" right after "The Transfer" on the grounds of Vultureman crashing the Flying Machine.

Your comment about "Tight Squeeze" and Vultureman is also particularly useful. Again, it's probably the best candidate for explaining away the tech - although we could probably do with a "padding" episode before the Trials, and "Dimension Doom" looks like the best option from your listings.

Is Lion-O technically the Lord of the Thundercats only after he's completed the trials? If so then any episodes where he's referred to as LotT would have to go after them.

"fallen_one, post: 91530" said:

Is Lion-O technically the Lord of the Thundercats only after he's completed the trials? If so then any episodes where he's referred to as LotT would have to go after them.

He's already the Lord of the Thundercats right back in "Exodus".

"LiamABC, post: 91543" said:

He's already the Lord of the Thundercats right back in "Exodus".

Yep. He's the hereditary Lord. The Trials, as Snarf explains, are to prove that he's worthy of the title. That said, we might look for episodes where he refers to himself by his title, and listen for hints of arrogance. He says in the Trial of Strength that he's been cócky about his position at times.

"thezaxfactor, post: 91548" said:

Yep. He's the hereditary Lord. The Trials, as Snarf explains, are to prove that he's worthy of the title. That said, we might look for episodes where he refers to himself by his title, and listen for hints of arrogance. He says in the Trial of Strength that he's been cócky about his position at times.

That's mainly earlier episodes anyway, like "The Unholy Alliance", and "The Thunder-Cutter", which has already been placed.

"The Crystal Queen" might fit the bill - he does underestimate the eponymous villain a little.

And of course, "Excalibur". I'm not sure if this creates a CLIP or not here. It has a flashback of "The Astral Prison", which, along with "The Mumm-Ra Berbil" is one of our "Cats surprised to see Mumm-Ra again" episodes to follow on from the Trials and "The Evil Harp Of Char-Nin".

If we have "The Astral Prison" following TEHOC, and then "Excalibur" before the Trials, then TMB, I think we might be OK. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Doesn't look like we ever really came to a conclusion here, so how about this for the definitive, officially unofficial order:

1. Exodus
2. The Unholy Alliance
3. Berbils
4. The Slaves of Castle Plundarr
5. Trouble With Time
6. Pumm-Ra
7. Terror of Hammerhand
8. The Tower of Traps
9. Garden of Delights
10. Spitting Image
11. The Doom Gaze
12. The Ghost Warrior
13. The Spaceship Beneath the Sands
14. Time Capsule
15. Safari Joe
16. The Fireballs of Plundarr
17. Mandora: Evil Chaser
18. Return to Thundera
19. The Thunder Cutter
20. Lord of the Snows
21. All That Glitters
22. Snarf Takes Up the Challenge
23. Mandora and the Pirates
24. Dr. Dometone
25. The Sixth Sense
26. The Wolfrat
27. Out of Sight
28. Queen of Eight Legs
29. The Rock Giant
30. The Super-Power Potion
31. The Feliner
32. The Feliner Pt 2
33. Sword in a Hole
34. The Crystal Queen
35. Mongor
36. The Transfer
37. Jackalman's Rebellion
38. Mumm-Rana
39. Good and Ugly
40. The Shifter
41. The Evil Harp of Charr-Ninn
42. The Astral Prison
43. Excalibur
44. Tight Squeeze
45. Dimension Doom
46. The Demolisher
47. The Trial of Strength
48. The Trial of Speed
49. The Trial of Cunning
50. The Trial of Mind Power
51. The Trial of Evil
52. Turmagar the Tuska
53. Trouble with Thunderkittens
54. The Secret of the Ice King
55. Trapped
56. The Mountain
57. Divide and Conquer
58. Micrits
59. The Mumm-Ra Berbil
60. Return of the Driller
61. Monkian's Bargain
62. Dream Master
63. Mechanical Plague
64. Eye of the Beholder
65. Fond Memories

I think that takes into account all the requirements that have been pointed out on this thread.

One thing is that the Trials seem a bit late here. However, I've tried to order the episodes roughly by how competent Lion-O comes across, and having the Trials towards the end of the season fits with this.

This order also lets the Feliner two-parter serve as a sort of mid-season finale.

What do you think? Any objections to this order?

I think that the order you placed the season-one episodes in is pretty well done.

"fallen_one, post: 92941" said:

[....] This order also lets the Feliner two-parter serve as a sort of mid-season finale.

What do you think? Any objections to this order?

At first glance it looks pretty good to me!:thumbsup:

I don't know if this has already been considered, but in "Mongor", when Mongor attacked Tygra, he tried to contact the other TCs through a comlink in his whip. I remember an ep where Panthro developed those comlinks in each of the TCs weapons and explain them how to use it, but can't remember which ep it was (Divide and Conquer?... mkight be after that, given that in that ep the TC didn't communicate with each other). Any way, that episode must come before "Mongor", right?